VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

STEVEN THOMAS

September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.

Page 1

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA

2 ATLANTA DIVISION

3 ROBERT CHRISTIAN WOLF,

Plaintiff,

4 Civil Action File

vs.

5 No. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)

JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY and

6 PATRICIA PAUGH RAMSEY,

Defendants.

7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

STEVEN THOMAS

September 21, 2001

11 9:07 a.m.

12 1100 Fourteenth Street

Denver, Colorado

14 Kelly A. Mackereth, CSR, RPR, CRR, and Notary Public

1 APPEARANCES

2 For the Plaintiff:

3 DARNAY HOFFMAN, ESQ.

4 (By telephone)

5 Law Office of Darnay Hoffman

6 210 West 7th Street, Suite 209

7 New York, NY 10023

8 (212) 712-2766

9 .

10 For the Defendants:

11 JAMES C. RAWLS, ESQ.

12 Powell, Goldstein, Frazer & Murphy, L.L.P.

13 191 Peachtree Street, N.E.

14 Sixteenth Floor

15 Atlanta, GA 30303

16 (404) 572-6600

17 L. LIN WOOD, ESQ.

18 The Equitable Building

19 100 Peachtree Street

20 Suite 2140

21 Atlanta, GA 30303

22 (404) 522-1713

23 -and-

24 .

25 .

1 For the Deponent:

2 CHARLES P. DIAMOND, ESQ.

3 O'Melveny & Myers

4 1999 Avenue of the Stars

5 Los Angeles, CA 90067-6035

6 (310) 553-6700

7 SEAN R. SMITH, ESQ.

8 Dow, Lohnes & Albertson

9 One Ravinia Drive

10 Suite 1600

11 Atlanta GA 30346-2108

12 (770) 901-8800

13 .

14 Also present:

15 JAY R. REN, CLVS

16 TODD TOMPKINS, Videographer Intern

17 O.M. "Ollie" Gray

18 .

19 .

20 .

21 .

22 .

23 .

24 .

25 .

1 Deposition of Steven Thomas

2 September 21, 2001

3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

4 9:07. We're on the record. This is the

5 deposition of Steve Thomas for the case of

6 Robert Christian Wolf versus John Bennett

7 Ramsey and Patricia Paugh Ramsey, Case Number

8 00-CIV-1187 in the U. S. District Court,

9 Atlanta Division, State of Georgia. Today is

10 September 21st, 2001.

11 We are located at 1100 Fourteenth

12 Street, Denver, Colorado. The court reporter

13 is Kelly Mackereth of Boverie, Jackson, Busby

14 and Speera. The videographer is Jay R. Ren,

15 certified legal video specialist for Ren Video

16 Services.

17 The attorneys will identify

18 themselves beginning with the attorney on the

19 left and the deponent's right.

20 MR. WOOD: My name is Lin Wood.

21 I represent John and Patsy Ramsey.

22 MR. RAWLS: I'm Jim Rawls. I'm

23 co-counsel with Lin Wood representing John and

24 Patsy Ramsey.

25 MR. GRAY: My name is Ollie Gray.

1 I'm an investigator in this case.

2 MR. DIAMOND: I am Chuck Diamond

3 of O'Melveny & Myers representing the witness,

4 Steve Thomas.

5 MR. SMITH: I'm Sean Smith, and I

6 also represent Steve Thomas.

7 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Also, on the

8 phone.

9 MR. WOOD: Your turn, Darnay.

10 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm Darnay Hoffman,

11 and I represent the Plaintiff, Robert

12 Christian Wolf.

13 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The reporter

14 will now swear in the witness.

15 MR. WOOD: You ready for us?

16 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Yes, we're

17 ready to swear in the witness.

18 MR. WOOD: Would you swear the

19 witness, please.

20 STEVEN THOMAS, having been first

21 duly sworn, was examined and testified as

22 follows:

23 EXAMINATION

24 BY-MR.WOOD:

25 Q. This will be the deposition of

1 Steve Thomas. The deposition is taken

2 pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil

3 Procedure and the Federal Rules of Evidence.

4 The deposition is taken pursuant

5 to subpoena duly served and notice duly filed

6 and also pursuant to the order and rulings of

7 Judge Jewell Carnes in denying Mr. Thomas'

8 motion to quash the subpoena. And I would

9 also note for the record that within the

10 ruling of Judge Carnes' counsel for

11 Mr. Thomas and for the parties have agreed as

12 to the date and the location of the

13 deposition.

14 I understand that Mr. Thomas will

15 read and sign the deposition. We would agree

16 that can be undertaken before an authorized

17 notary public. Everybody set?

18 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.

19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) All right.

20 Mr. Thomas, you've been sworn. Let me ask

21 you for the record, please, to state your

22 full name.

23 A. My full name is William Steven

24 Walton Thomas.

25 Q. You go by Steve?

1 A. I do.

2 Q. Do you have any preference? I'll

3 probably call you Mr. Thomas but if you would

4 rather I call you Steve or something you just

5 let me know?

6 A. Steve, Mr. Thomas.

7 Q. All right. I may bounce back and

8 forth. What is your --

9 MR. DIAMOND: Let's stay on a

10 last-name basis. It is a sworn testimony.

11 MR. WOOD: Yeah.

12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, let me ask

13 you this if you would, Mr. Thomas, would you

14 give me your present residence address?

15 A.

17 MR. DIAMOND:

19 A.

21 MR. DIAMOND: That's what I think

22 he wanted.

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you have any

24 present plans to move from that residence?

25 A. Ultimately I will leave Colorado

1 but, no, for the moment, that's where I'm

2 residing.

3 Q. Do you have any plans even though

4 they may be tentative in terms of when you

5 would hope to leave Colorado?

6 A. Certainly not before this matter

7 is resolved.

8 Q. This matter being the Chris Wolf

9 case or this matter being the lawsuit filed

10 by John and Patsy Ramsey against you?

11 A. Both.

12 Q. Okay. So we would be safe to say

13 you're here in Colorado at least through the

14 duration of those two matters; is that true?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q.

17 A.

18 Q.

19 A.

20 Q.

21 A.

23 Q.

24 A.

25 Q.

2 A.

3 Q.

4 A.

5 Q.

6 A.

7 Q.

8 MR. DIAMOND:

10 MR. WOOD:

12 MR. DIAMOND:

16 MR. WOOD:

18 take it. If you have an instruction to the

19 witness to make, make it and we'll move onto

20 the next question.

21 MR. DIAMOND: We'll designate that

22 confidential. We can talk about that at the

23 conclusion of the deposition.

24 MR. WOOD: Sure. We're going to

25 have at some point a protective order to

1 present you with that you all will have the

2 opportunity to sign onto.

3 MR. DIAMOND: Yeah, I've seen

4 that.

5 MR. WOOD: Yeah, and that would

6 protect that information if he wants to give

7 it to me. If you all want to then designate

8 it within the time period allowed by law so

9 subject to that designation I assume you will

10 let him answer.

11 MR. DIAMOND: I will.

12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)

15 A.

16 Q.

17 A.

18 Q.

19 A.

20 Q.

21 A.

22 Q.

23 A.

24 Q.

25 A.

1 Q.

4 A.

5 Q.

7 A.

8 Q.

10 A.

11 Q.

12 A.

15 MR. DIAMOND: Do you know? If

16 you don't know, you don't know.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) That's something

18 you could get copies of down the road if we

19 need it I'm sure, true?

20 A. I'm sure we have those somewhere.

21 Q. Okay. Do you have any other --

22 do you engage in any other present activities

23 for compensation in terms of trying to earn

24 money, other than your business as a

25 carpenter?

1 A. Occasionally I'm asked to speak.

2 Q. Speak in what capacity?

3 A. Occasionally I'm asked to speak to

4 different groups, law enforcement primarily.

5 Q. Do you solicit invitations to

6 speak from organizations?

7 A. Recently we have in conjunction

8 with some defense fund raising.

9 Q. When you say "we have" who is we?

10 A. People who are helping me with

11 that legal defense fund raising.

12 Q. Who is "we" then, please, by name?

13 A. Sherill Whisenand.

14 Q. Anyone else?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And what is Sherill Wisinhunt?

17 MR. DIAMOND: Whisenand.

18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Whisenand. When

19 did you first meet her?

20 A. I probably first spoke with her in

21 1999.

22 Q. And who is she employed with?

23 A. Currently I believe she's

24 self-employed.

25 Q. What is the name of her company,

1 do you know?

2 A. I also think she -- I do think

3 she also has other employment but the name of

4 her company is Wise Connections.

5 Q. Is she a public relations person?

6 A. I don't know how she bills

7 herself.

8 Q. What do you see her as?

9 A. A friend.

10 Q. You don't know what her business

11 is?

12 A. I know she works with Dr. Laura

13 as a producer with that radio show.

14 Q. You don't know what type of

15 business she does in connection with her work

16 Wise Connections?

17 A. Yes, she helps me with speaking.

18 Q. Did she form that company Wise

19 Connections just to help you?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Do you know whether it existed

22 before she met you?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. How did you come to meet her?

25 A. Through a mutual friend.

1 Q. Who is that?

2 A. Anthony Robbins.

3 Q. Tony Robbins, the fellow we see on

4 TV?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when did you -- I'm sorry.

7 You first spoke with her, is that when you

8 met her in 1999?

9 A. No, I did not meet her in person

10 until some point after that. I spoke with

11 her for a period of time on the telephone.

12 Q. And I assume that that was in

13 connection with, what, raising funds did you

14 tell me?

15 A. At what point are you talking

16 about --

17 Q. When you met --

18 A. -- when I first met her?

19 Q. Yeah.

20 A. No, I wasn't raising funds in

21 1999. When I first met her was simply we

22 struck up a friendship when I was calling

23 Tony Robbins' office.

24 Q. When did you get into, in effect,

25 a business relationship with her, when did

1 that start?

2 A. I think at some point I tired of

3 taking media calls and the calls for speaking

4 and she volunteered to take those for me.

5 Q. When did that happen?

6 A. Probably late '99, 2000, sometime

7 during the calendar year of 2000.

8 Q. Or late the calendar year of 1999?

9 A. Possibly. I don't recall.

10 Q. Well, your answer was when I said

11 when did that happen you said probably late

12 '99, 2000, sometime during the calendar year

13 2000; is that correct?

14 A. I'm trying to give you a sense

15 for when that occurred.

16 MR. DIAMOND: What's your best

17 recollection? I'm sorry, I lost the thread.

18 The time period --

19 MR. WOOD: I'm trying to find out

20 -- yeah, hold on one second, I'll tell you

21 exactly. I asked him the date of when he

22 entered into, in effect, a business

23 relationship with her, the date.

24 A. I think it would have been the

25 calendar year sometime during 2000 because

1 that's when the calls and the requests came.

2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Let me see if this

3 will help you. Was it prior to the

4 publication of your book?

5 A. I don't recall, but as I mentioned

6 I think when I had her take over these calls

7 and requests was after the flurry, after the

8 book was released.

9 Q. Does that lead you to believe that

10 in probability you did not engage in a

11 business relationship with Sherill Whisenand

12 until after the April 2000 publication of

13 your book "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder

14 Investigation"?

15 A. Well, there's not a bright line in

16 my head because I still consider her a friend

17 and when that transitioned at some point to

18 some business work the friendship certainly

19 didn't cease and that doesn't stand out in my

20 head.

21 Q. Did you have any flurry of phone

22 calls from the media prior to the publication

23 of your book?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you handle all of those or do

1 you recall Sherill Whisenand handling some of

2 them?

3 A. She may have handled some of

4 those.

5 Q. So that tells me it may be that

6 you were involved in a business relationship

7 with her prior to the publication of your

8 book possibly?

9 A. Well, when you say business

10 relationship --

11 Q. When she's handling media calls

12 for you?

13 A. The fact that she took calls for

14 me she certainly did that as a friend as

15 well because she volunteered to do that.

16 (Exhibit-1 was marked.)

17 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I expect

18 you're going to tie this into a line of

19 questioning that has to do with the work that

20 he did as a police investigator in connection

21 with the Ramsey case?

22 MR. WOOD: Stay tuned. I'm going

23 to let you look at it and I'm going to ask

24 him questions about it.

25 MR. DIAMOND: Well, I'm going to

1 limit you to that because that's what this

2 deposition is about.

3 MR. WOOD: If you have an

4 instruction under the Federal Rules of Civil

5 Procedure to make, Mr. Diamond, feel free to

6 make it. I've asked you to take a look at

7 this exhibit. I'm going to ask Mr. Thomas

8 to take a look at it. It's been marked for

9 purposes of identification as Exhibit 1.

10 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.

11 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You're familiar

12 with the website set up with respect to your

13 lecture for hire, true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And this is, I take it you would

16 agree, a true and correct copy of that

17 website page?

18 A. That's not from my website, that's

19 from another website, but I'm familiar with

20 that page, yes.

21 Q. Okay. And this obviously

22 advertises your willingness to lecture on the

23 JonBenet Ramsey case for compensation, true?

24 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, the only

25 reason I can see you asking these questions

1 is concerning the jurisdictional debate that

2 we currently have pending --

3 MR. WOOD: I'm asking what he

4 does for a living.

5 MR. DIAMOND: You can ask him

6 what he does for a living. He's told you

7 what he does for a living. He's a carpenter

8 and he does public speaking --

9 MR. WOOD: I'm asking him about

10 that solicitation.

11 MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going to

12 let you inquire about that.

13 MR. WOOD: If you have,

14 Mr. Diamond, if you have a -- we're not here

15 to argue with each other and I don't --

16 MR. DIAMOND: Well --

17 THE REPORTER: One at a time.

18 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, then

19 you'll have time.

20 MR. DIAMOND: Certainly.

21 MR. WOOD: I simply asked him

22 about this for purposes of establishing what

23 he does for a living in whole or in part.

24 If you have an instruction to make under the

25 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, just make

1 it. I don't need to debate it.

2 MR. DIAMOND: I will.

3 MR. WOOD: If you instruct him

4 not to answer the question, state the

5 privilege, as I understand that's what you're

6 limited to. State the privilege and make

7 your instruction and we can address it at a

8 later time.

9 MR. DIAMOND: I'm fully prepared

10 to do that.

11 MR. WOOD: All right.

12 MR. DIAMOND: And I intend to do

13 that. I want to give you an opportunity to

14 tell me how this relates to the subject

15 matter of the deposition --

16 MR. WOOD: I did.

17 MR. DIAMOND: -- within the

18 framework that Judge Carnes said you were

19 allowed to inquire. And, you know, if you're

20 prepared to tender a good cause showing, I'm

21 happy to let him answer. Obviously, on its

22 face this is going nowhere but to the

23 jurisdictional dispute that my client and your

24 client are currently engaged in unless there

25 is some other reason. He's already told you

1 what he does for a living.

2 I'll have the pending question

3 read, and then I'll decide whether to

4 instruct him or not.

5 MR. WOOD: I don't think there is

6 a pending question. I think he told me that

7 it was a -- he was familiar with this

8 website and has his own website.

9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What is your

10 website address?

11 A. It's not necessarily my website.

12 It's a website that was created by a

13 supporter of mine, and the address is

14 www.forstevethomas.com.

15 MR. DIAMOND: He wanted to know

16 your website. Do you have a website?

17 THE DEPONENT: I thought that was

18 the one he was talking about.

19 MR. DIAMOND: No. Do you have a

20 website?

21 THE DEPONENT: No.

22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) So did you

23 misspeak a minute ago when you said something

24 about your website because you said that's

25 not from my website, that's from another

1 website but I'm familiar with that page. Did

2 you misspeak when you said the words "my

3 website"?

4 A. There is a website owned by a

5 third party who is a supporter of mine.

6 Q. Who is that?

7 A. A woman I know as B.J.

8 Q. You don't know her full name?

9 A. Barbara, I don't know her last

10 name.

11 Q. Do you know where she lives?

12 A. Ohio.

13 Q. Where in Ohio?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. So other than the

16 lecture-for-profit business and the carpentry

17 business, do you have any other employment at

18 the present time?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you authorize Plaintiff's

21 Exhibit Number 1 to be posted to solicit

22 speaking engagements?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?

25 A. In a civil proceeding?

1 Q. Let's start there, in a civil

2 proceeding?

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. That makes me believe that you

5 have been deposed in a criminal proceeding;

6 is that true?

7 A. Well, certainly I'm not familiar

8 with the civil aspect of this as much as I

9 am the criminal half of things. I have

10 given testimony certainly in criminal cases,

11 but I have never been deposed in a setting

12 like this.

13 Q. The testimony you have given in

14 criminal cases has been, I assume, either in

15 hearings or trials in a courtroom?

16 A. In front of grand jurors, yeah.

17 Q. Right. You've never sat in a

18 deposition where no judge is present, no

19 grand jury is present, just the lawyers where

20 we take what is called a deposition; is that

21 your testimony?

22 A. I was present in a deposition

23 many, many years ago in the 1980s in a

24 police case but I don't recall that I ever

25 had to give testimony.

1 Q. Was that some sort of a civil

2 lawsuit?

3 A. Exactly.

4 Q. Were you a defendant in that

5 matter?

6 A. The city and myself and other

7 officers, yes.

8 Q. And where was that?

9 A. The City of Wheat Ridge, Colorado.

10 Q. Were you sued for a violation of

11 civil rights?

12 A. No, I don't think that was the

13 basis of the suit.

14 Q. What was the basis?

15 A. We stopped a car we believed to

16 be stolen. It turned out not to be and the

17 people felt wronged by that.

18 Q. So you were sued as a defendant

19 along with others and the City of Wheat

20 Ridge, Colorado?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Do you know how that case was

23 resolved?

24 A. I think it settled.

25 Q. Moneys paid to the plaintiff?

1 A. That's my understanding.

2 Q. On your behalf as well as the

3 city's behalf?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. But that was -- was that filed in

6 the Wheat Ridge or the county of Wheat Ridge?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. But in Colorado?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you deposed?

11 A. That's what I just said, no. I

12 don't -- I don't know that I had to give any

13 testimony in that.

14 Q. I thought you said you were

15 present for deposition; I may have

16 misunderstood. I don't know if you were

17 there watching someone in attendance or

18 whether you were actually deposed and you're

19 not sure of which; is that right?

20 A. I recall being in a setting

21 similar to this where the other parties were

22 on the other side of the table and there was

23 some Q and A, but I think it was the other

24 side.

25 Q. Other than that lawsuit, have you

1 ever been sued in any other matters?

2 Obviously we know about the John and Patsy

3 Ramsey lawsuit against you. Other than those

4 two cases, have you ever been sued in a

5 civil case?

6 A. I don't recall any other, no,

7 civil suit in my capacity as a police officer

8 or as a citizen.

9 Q.

11 A.

12 Q.

14 A.

15 Q.

16 A.

17 Q.

19 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, what is

20 that relevant to?

21 MR. WOOD: Well, it may very well

22 be relevant to jury --

23 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry.

24 MR. WOOD: It may very well be

25 relevant to jury issues.

1 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry, to jury

2 issues?

3 MR. WOOD: Yes, sir. When you

4 select a jury, I may want to know his former

5 wife's residence or name or employment in the

6 jury selection process. Now, let me say this

7 to you, Mr. Diamond, I'm not going to debate

8 relevance. My question is simple. If you

9 have an instruction to make to the witness,

10 make it. But we can't waste time going back

11 and forth discussing relevance.

12 I ask that question of every

13 witness in a deposition. It's done for jury

14 purposes. It's a legitimate question. May

15 we please get an answer and move on?

16 MR. DIAMOND: You may answer

17 whether or not she lives in the State of

18 Georgia.

19 A.

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)

24 A.

25 Q.

2 A.

5 Q.

7 A.

9 Q.

13 A.

14 Q. Tell me if you would, Mr. Thomas,

15 about what your deposition preparation was in

16 this case. What did you do to prepare for

17 the deposition?

18 A. I met with my attorneys and they

19 explained to me how --

20 MR. DIAMOND: You don't need to

21 get into the context.

22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, I don't want

23 to know what, unless your attorneys want me

24 to know, I suspect they don't. I don't need

25 to know what you and your attorneys

1 discussed. I would like to know the fact of

2 the meeting, when it took place and how long

3 it lasted.

4 A. I met on Wednesday, September

5 19th, with Mr. Sean Smith for several hours

6 and then yesterday, September 20th of 2001, I

7 met again several hours with Mr. Smith and

8 with Chuck Diamond.

9 Q. Tell me how many hours, your best

10 estimate as to how many hours several hours

11 is on the 19th, let's start there, with

12 Mr. Smith.

13 A. A full day. We took a long

14 lunch, but I think we began our day at 9:30

15 a.m. and ended around 5 p.m.

16 Q. And then yesterday, how long?

17 A. Similar.

18 Q. 9:30 to 5 with a lunch break?

19 A. Yeah, we may have gone past 5

20 o'clock last evening, maybe 6 or 7 p.m.

21 Q. And was Mr. Diamond here yesterday

22 during the day?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At the beginning of your meeting

25 at 9 a.m. or 9:30 a.m.?

1 A. I certainly believe so.

2 Q. I only asked because I was under

3 the impression he was not available to be

4 here yesterday but that's all right, that's

5 not an issue for you to worry about.

6 Did you review any written

7 materials in preparation for your deposition?

8 A. I reviewed my book.

9 Q. That book being, identified earlier

10 "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder

11 Investigation." You have a copy of the hard

12 back with you I see?

13 A. It's a hard back I looked at,

14 yes.

15 Q. Okay. Did you review any other

16 written materials?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you have notes that you

19 utilized in writing your book?

20 A. No, let me interrupt you. I did

21 stuck in -- stuck in this book was a

22 two-page report from the Chris Wolf matter

23 that I did review.

24 Q. Do you have a copy of that?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Is that something we could see?

2 MR. DIAMOND: What's that?

3 MR. WOOD: The two-page report on

4 the Chris Wolf matter that he reviewed in

5 preparation, is that something we could take

6 a look at?

7 MR. DIAMOND: We don't have it,

8 it's not with him today.

9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Was this something

10 prepared by your attorneys?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Who was it prepared by?

13 A. This was, I found stuck in a book

14 this summer a two-page report that I had

15 written as a police detective on the Jackie

16 Dilson, Chris Wolf matter.

17 Q. And you have that where presently

18 located?

19 A. That's probably in a folder

20 sitting at home.

21 Q. And you will maintain possession

22 of that at my request in the event we decide

23 we would like to ask for that formally,

24 subject to your attorney's agreement that we

25 would be entitled to it down the road?

1 A. Certainly.

2 MR. DIAMOND: Happy to hold on to

3 it.

4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I assume that what

5 you're telling me, Mr. Thomas, is you've got

6 two pages of notes that you've made yourself

7 on Chris Wolf relating to the investigation

8 of Chris Wolf?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Tell me what exactly, maybe I

11 didn't understand you, what those two pages

12 are.

13 A. It's not notes. It's a two-page

14 typewritten report that I had prepared.

15 Q. For the Boulder Police Department?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember the date of that

18 report?

19 A. January 1998.

20 Q. January of '98?

21 A. I'm sorry, January of 1997.

22 Q. Okay. Did you prepare any other

23 written reports for the Boulder Police

24 Department about Chris Wolf, other than the

25 two-page report you've referred to that is

1 dated January of 1997?

2 A. Certainly.

3 Q. Have you had an opportunity to

4 review them in preparation for your

5 deposition?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you -- did you have notes from

8 which you relied on in whole or in part in

9 writing your book "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey

10 Murder Investigation"?

11 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I'm going

12 to instruct him not to answer.

13 MR. WOOD: On what privilege?

14 MR. DIAMOND: Not on privilege,

15 the limitation that was imposed by Judge

16 Carnes or the condition in which he allowed

17 this deposition to go forward.

18 MR. WOOD: Excuse me, I don't

19 know --

20 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, you let me

21 finish and I'll let you finish.

22 MR. WOOD: I apologize for

23 interrupting, but let me say this to you --

24 MR. DIAMOND: Well, then don't

25 interrupt me. I will finish what I'm saying.

1 MR. WOOD: Mr. Diamond --

2 MR. DIAMOND: Maybe --

3 THE REPORTER: Please, one at a

4 time.

5 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. We're

6 going to take a break off the record. I'm

7 not going to let you yell at me. Calm down.

8 We'll come back and we'll start again in five

9 minutes. We'll go off the record and not

10 waste deposition time.

11 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is now

12 9:34. We're going off the record.

13 (Recess taken from 9:35 a.m. to

14 9:45 a.m.)

15 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

16 9:45. We're back on the record.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I'm going to try

18 to make sure I can avoid any problems that

19 Mr. Diamond might have with my question. Let

20 me go back and withdraw the last question and

21 restate it. What I would like to know,

22 Mr. Thomas, is do you have notes pertaining

23 to your involvement in or the investigation

24 of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

25 A. The Boulder Police Department has

1 those notes. I don't know that I have any

2 notes.

3 Q. You left the Department by

4 resignation of August the 6th, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. 1998?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When did you turn over all of

9 your notes to the Boulder Police Department?

10 A. Shortly thereafter.

11 Q. Who did you turn them over to?

12 A. I returned my briefcases and those

13 contents, along with all my police equipment,

14 which was inventoried, to Commander Dave Hayes

15 and Sergeant Michael Ready.

16 Q. Did you turn over your case

17 notebooks?

18 A. Everything.

19 Q. How many case notebooks did you

20 turn over?

21 A. What do you mean by case

22 notebooks?

23 Q. Don't you know what the case

24 notebook was used in this case, sir, filled

25 out by all of the detectives on a daily

1 basis?

2 MR. DIAMOND: He may ask you for

3 an explanation, what you're referring to.

4 You're not going to help him out?

5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you know, sir,

6 what the case notebooks were in this case in

7 terms of the notebooks prepared by the

8 detectives, I believe on a daily basis?

9 A. A case notebook that was

10 prepared --

11 Q. Did you have --

12 A. -- on a daily basis?

13 Q. Yes. Did you have a notebook

14 that you kept, maintained with respect to

15 your investigation?

16 A. I had folders and my working

17 papers which I maintained with respect to my

18 parts of the investigation.

19 MR. DIAMOND: He's asking about a

20 notebook.

21 THE DEPONENT: Yeah, I know.

22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You didn't have

23 them in any notebook form?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, those working papers, all of

1 that was turned back into the Boulder Police

2 Department shortly after you resigned in

3 August of 1998?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You maintained no notebooks; is

6 that right?

7 A. I maintained copies of those.

8 Q. So you have copies of your

9 reports?

10 A. No, I didn't say that. I don't

11 know that I have those copies anymore.

12 Q. Well, you said you maintained

13 copies. Copies of what?

14 A. I maintained copies of what was in

15 my working file briefcase which I returned to

16 the Boulder Police Department.

17 Q. How many pages of documents are we

18 talking about?

19 A. A couple hundred maybe.

20 Q. Do you have those presently in

21 your possession, custody or control?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What did you do with them?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. They just mysteriously disappeared?

1 A. No, I have moved twice in the

2 interim. We have some things in storage.

3 We, my wife moved overseas. If I still had

4 a cardboard box full of those documents or

5 materials. I'm unaware of their present

6 location.

7 Q. When do you last recall looking at

8 them or reviewing them?

9 (Discussion off the record between

10 the deponent and Mr. Diamond.)

11 A. I last looked at those in --

12 MR. DIAMOND: He has mentioned the

13 first full report that he --

14 MR. WOOD: Yeah, well, let him

15 answer that.

16 MR. DIAMOND: Are you excluding

17 that?

18 MR. WOOD: No, I'm not excluding

19 anything. I want to learn everything.

20 A. Early 2000.

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) How early 2000?

22 A. Probably February or March.

23 Q. That was the last time you saw

24 them?

25 A. Right.

1 Q. And when did you move?

2 A. I moved -- I sold my house this

3 summer, summer of 2001.

4 Q. And did you pack up your

5 possessions?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you don't have any explanation

8 to offer as to what happened to your JonBenet

9 Ramsey working papers since you last claimed

10 to have seen them sometime in February or

11 March of 19' -- of 2000?

12 A. Yeah, after I last looked at them,

13 this was a cardboard box full of these

14 documents. And to your question, yeah, I

15 don't know where they are currently.

16 Q. You did not destroy them

17 intentionally, did you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You didn't intentionally lose them,

20 did you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You didn't think they were

23 valuable to keep?

24 A. No, not necessarily.

25 Q. When did you -- in terms of that,

1 you did know at some point that the Ramseys

2 indicated they were going to file a lawsuit

3 against you if you published a book, didn't

4 you?

5 A. Repeat the question, please.

6 Q. You knew early on when your book

7 was published that the Ramseys had stated

8 that they were going to file a lawsuit

9 against you?

10 A. I had heard through the media that

11 they had made those threats.

12 Q. You didn't think it might be wise

13 to keep up with your notes to have those in

14 the event there was a lawsuit?

15 A. Those are all available in the

16 Boulder Police Department.

17 Q. So everything that you had, the

18 200 pages is available from the Boulder

19 Police Department; is that right?

20 A. Yes, as I said, I turned

21 everything back to the Boulder Police

22 Department.

23 Q. In fact, there's quotes in your

24 book, for example, of interview testimony from

25 different individuals. For example, there are

1 quotes alleged to have been made by Burke

2 Ramsey in June of 1998, by John Ramsey in

3 June of 1998, by Patsy Ramsey in June of

4 1998, by John Ramsey in April of 1997, by

5 Patsy Ramsey in April of 1997 during police

6 or district attorney interviews.

7 MR. DIAMOND: You'll represent

8 that is the case?

9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, well, that

10 is the case, isn't it; you know that to be

11 true, don't you?

12 A. That the book contained --

13 Q. Quotes from the interviews of

14 April 1997 and June of 1998 of John and

15 Patsy Ramsey and from Burke of June of 1998?

16 A. Yeah, I would agree with that.

17 Q. I'm just trying to find out, for

18 example, your notes, would they -- would the

19 notes have those quotes in them?

20 A. What notes are you referring to?

21 Q. The notes that you can't find now.

22 How would you have quotes --

23 MR. DIAMOND: I'm going to object.

24 MR. WOOD: Let me.

25 MR. DIAMOND: He didn't say he

1 couldn't find them. He said he doesn't know

2 where they are. You haven't asked him

3 whether he's been looking for them recently,

4 have you?

5 MR. WOOD: Well, I mean, I will

6 ask him that in a minute. Again, Chuck,

7 we'll move quicker if you limit yourself to

8 instructions on privilege.

9 MR. DIAMOND: Mischaracterizes his

10 testimony in your --

11 MR. WOOD: That's not an objection

12 on privilege, nonetheless.

13 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, I'm

14 trying to figure out whether you had notes

15 that would have had these precise quotes in

16 them and that's how you were able to use

17 them to come up with the quotes in your

18 book. Or did you come up with those quotes

19 from their various interviews from your mind's

20 eye, your own recollection only? Do you

21 follow me?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Which was the case?

24 A. They were either in notes which I

25 had or in documents I subsequently received.

1 Q. And what documents did you

2 subsequently receive about the investigation?

3 A. After I left the police

4 department, over a period of time I received

5 through the mail various documents concerning

6 the investigation.

7 Q. From whom?

8 A. Anonymously through the mail.

9 Q. Postmarked from where?

10 A. Boulder or Denver.

11 Q. And were these documents police

12 files or reports on the JonBenet Ramsey

13 investigation?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were they documents from the

16 district attorney's office on the JonBenet

17 Ramsey investigation?

18 A. What do you mean from the district

19 attorney's office?

20 Q. Well, for example, a report

21 prepared by Michael Kane, as opposed to a

22 report prepared by Mark Beckner. One works

23 for the Boulder PD and one works for the

24 district attorney or did. You know the

25 difference.

1 A. No, these were Boulder Police

2 Department documents.

3 Q. And how many pages of documents

4 did you receive subsequent to the time that

5 you left the Boulder Police Department that

6 concerned the JonBenet Ramsey murder

7 investigation?

8 A. Several hundred.

9 Q. Where are those documents?

10 A. Unknown. They would be in the

11 same box if I still have it.

12 Q. So how many -- let me see if I've

13 got all the sources of written materials that

14 you had after you left the Boulder Police

15 Department on August the 6th, 1998. You had

16 some couple hundred pages of your work papers

17 that you had copied, correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. You didn't make copies of police

20 reports?

21 A. In what context are you talking

22 about?

23 Q. In this 200 some odd pages of

24 your working papers, were there also copies

25 of police files, police reports on the

1 JonBenet Ramsey investigation?

2 A. Yes, these were my working papers,

3 yes.

4 Q. Well, for example, would it only

5 be reports prepared by you or did you have

6 copies of reports prepared by other officers?

7 A. As I was the affiant on the

8 master affidavit in this case I certainly was

9 in possession of reports from others to

10 include in any search or arrest warrant in

11 this case.

12 Q. So the answer is yes?

13 A. To what question?

14 Q. The one I asked you. Did you

15 have copies of other officers' reports on the

16 JonBenet Ramsey case in your working papers?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You make reference to being the

19 affiant on the master affidavit. Did your

20 working papers then include copies of all of

21 the documents that you had and had in any

22 way relied on in preparing the master

23 affidavit in the JonBenet Ramsey case?

24 A. If I understand you correctly, no.

25 Q. Were you authorized to keep those

1 copies by the Boulder Police Department?

2 A. When I resigned abruptly, I

3 returned all those papers to the Boulder

4 Police Department and there was no further

5 communication between us.

6 Q. But did you tell them you had

7 kept copies of the papers?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Am I correct that everything you

10 had in your physical possession in terms of

11 case files, case reports, notes, at the time

12 that you resigned, whatever you turned over

13 to the Boulder Police Department at the time

14 of your resignation, you made copies of and

15 kept yourself; is that right?

16 A. I believe so.

17 Q. And that was only a couple hundred

18 pages?

19 A. I believe so, yes.

20 Q. And did you keep, for example, a

21 transcript of the April 30, 1997 interview

22 that you conducted with Patsy Ramsey?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. So subsequent to leaving, from

25 what period of time until what period of time

1 were you receiving anonymous police file

2 information on the JonBenet Ramsey case that

3 you say totaled several hundred pages? When

4 did it start and when did you last get

5 something?

6 A. Initially after I had made my

7 intentions known that I was going to tell my

8 story through a book. And that was probably

9 early, maybe January of 1999 and throughout

10 that calendar year of 1999.

11 Q. Any materials in the year 2000?

12 A. Not that I recall.

13 Q. Did you make any efforts to

14 solicit information from any member of the

15 Boulder Police Department about the

16 investigation after you left?

17 MR. DIAMOND: May I ask a

18 clarifying question? Solicit written

19 materials or just talking to somebody?

20 MR. WOOD: Information, case

21 information about the case.

22 A. Can you repeat the question

23 please?

24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Sure, did you make

25 any efforts to solicit information about the

1 JonBenet murder investigation from any member

2 of the Boulder Police Department after you

3 left the department in August of 1998?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you have any idea who sent you

6 any of these alleged anonymous documents?

7 A. These are smart people. No.

8 Q. How do you know they were accurate

9 if you don't know who sent them to you?

10 A. Because I had previously seen all

11 of them.

12 Q. So this was information that was

13 contained in the case file that you didn't

14 copy when you left the force, but it predated

15 your leaving the force; is that true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you ever receive any

18 information about grand jury testimony or

19 evidence in the case?

20 A. Never.

21 Q. Did you ever receive any

22 information about the investigation in terms

23 of efforts and information subsequent to the

24 investigation August 1998? Let me withdraw

25 that and make it a little bit cleaner.

1 I want to know, you tell me the

2 information you got predated your resignation

3 date. Did you ever get any new information,

4 that is to say information that was generated

5 about the case after August of 1998?

6 A. Without reviewing this box, I

7 would have to say as we sit here now that it

8 was all pre-August '98. I don't recall

9 sitting here that any of it was post-August

10 '98.

11 Q. So that the documents that you

12 have and the information that you had about

13 the case, your best recollection is that

14 would have been limited to information

15 generated prior to August of 1998, true?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I see no

18 relevance to this line other than to find out

19 what he knew at the time he wrote the book.

20 I instruct him not to answer. If you want

21 to take this up with the judge, I am happy

22 to do so. If you want to make a record as

23 to why this is relevant to the Wolf case,

24 I'm happy to listen to you. Otherwise, he's

25 instructed not to answer. Move on.

1 MR. WOOD: Is there a privilege

2 being asserted?

3 MR. DIAMOND: You heard me, move

4 on.

5 MR. WOOD: Sir, if you will be

6 polite, we will be polite, also.

7 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead. I am

8 happy to be polite.

9 MR. WOOD: Yes, sir, please do.

10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) My question is,

11 I'm trying to find out about your knowledge

12 concerning the JonBenet Ramsey investigation.

13 And it seems from what I am hearing that

14 your knowledge is limited to information about

15 the case from the date of the murder in 1996

16 through August of 1998. Is that right?

17 MR. DIAMOND: From police sources

18 is what you have asked him about?

19 MR. WOOD: My question is on the

20 table, now, sir. We can call Judge Carnes

21 and correct the problem that we're

22 experiencing with you if we need to. I hope

23 we don't need to.

24 MR. DIAMOND: We may well have

25 to.

1 MR. WOOD: We certainly may have

2 to if you keep interrupting inappropriately

3 under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure,

4 procedure for depositions.

5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Could you answer

6 my question, please, Mr. Thomas?

7 A. Could you repeat it for me,

8 please?

9 Q. Sure. I'm going to read it right

10 back to you. I'm trying to find out about

11 your knowledge concerning the JonBenet Ramsey

12 investigation. And it seems from what I'm

13 hearing that your knowledge is limited to

14 information about the case from the date of

15 the murder in 1996 through August of 1998; is

16 that right?

17 A. No, after August of 1998, I

18 certainly followed media accounts and what was

19 released publicly and followed the case with

20 some interest.

21 Q. Fair enough. Let me add that in.

22 Can I then say in terms of drawing a circle

23 around your knowledge of the JonBenet Ramsey

24 murder investigation, that your knowledge

25 consists of knowledge about the police

1 information and to some extent district

2 attorney information from the date of the

3 murder until the time you left in August of

4 1998 and subsequent to 1998 has been

5 supplemented by what you have learned either

6 through media accounts or through official

7 statements from the Boulder Police Department

8 or the district attorney's office; is that

9 right?

10 A. Very confusing question. Can you

11 break that up for me? I don't understand

12 what you --

13 Q. I just want to find out what

14 you've got. You've got your personal

15 knowledge. You've got the police file

16 information that you described for me, the

17 copies of the documents you copied, the

18 documents that have been sent to you

19 subsequent. And that all dealt, you believe,

20 pre-August 1998, right?

21 A. I'm not following you, Mr. Wood.

22 Q. Well, stick with me. I'll try

23 and make it simple for you.

24 A. Please.

25 Q. More simple. You've told me about

1 the documents. I've covered all the

2 documents, haven't I? You've got the

3 documents you copied and you've got the

4 documents that were anonymously sent to you,

5 right?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Do you have any other documents

8 about this investigation, other than those

9 documents? Do you?

10 A. Oh, I'm sorry. If I understand

11 the question correctly, no, as I said, not

12 that I recall because post-August '98 began

13 the grand jury. And certainly I don't have

14 any information from the grand jury room.

15 Q. So we've got your personal

16 knowledge about your involvement in the case,

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. We've got your knowledge from the

20 written documents that you've just described

21 for me?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then subsequent to August of

24 1998, your knowledge about the case and its

25 status would be limited to what you have

1 either seen or heard in the media or what

2 may have been officially stated by law

3 enforcement authorities, right?

4 A. As far as I recall, I don't

5 recall anything, as I have said, post August

6 of 1998 coming my way, but I'm not limiting

7 myself to that, if that answers your

8 question.

9 Q. As we sit here today, can you

10 think of anything other than that? Is that

11 your best recollection as you sit here today,

12 sir?

13 A. Yes, as I sit here right now, if

14 I understand this correctly, that's my answer.

15 Q. And I'm sure that you came to

16 this deposition in an effort to prepare for

17 it and to refresh yourself about the

18 investigation, you knew you were going to be

19 asked about it, didn't you?

20 A. The question being I know I was

21 going to be asked about the investigation?

22 Q. Sure.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. JonBenet Ramsey, that was the

25 first murder investigation that you were

1 involved in; is that right?

2 A. As a detective, yes.

3 Q. You were involved in a murder

4 investigation in some other capacity?

5 A. I had been on homicide scenes as

6 a uniformed officer.

7 Q. But as a detective actively

8 investigating the murder, was JonBenet Ramsey

9 the first murder investigation in that

10 capacity for you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can we also say that it was the

13 only one?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you were involved as a

16 detective in other homicide investigations?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Tell me about those. How many?

19 A. One other.

20 Q. When was that?

21 A. In 1997, I believe.

22 Q. Is that the one where the police

23 officer was present when someone shot someone

24 else in a domestic dispute?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And then the person came down and

2 admitted that he had shot or she had shot

3 their spouse?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that was kind of the end all

6 of that case, wasn't it? Pretty open and

7 shut, wouldn't you agree?

8 A. When you say end all, yes, that

9 concluded rather quickly.

10 Q. Yeah, I mean as I understand that

11 case, there was a domestic dispute call, the

12 police officer was there and one of the

13 spouses shot the other one and killed them,

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then came down to the police

17 headquarters, and I believe you may have even

18 been the person talking to the perpetrator,

19 and that person admitted to shooting his --

20 was it his spouse or her spouse?

21 A. Her spouse.

22 Q. Her spouse. Anything other than

23 that one case prior to the JonBenet Ramsey

24 murder investigation, did you have any other

25 case where you were involved in a homicide

1 investigation as a detective?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. So it was the only other

4 one; JonBenet Ramsey was your last one I'm

5 sure, right?

6 A. No, the last one was this

7 Jakob-Chien homicide we're describing.

8 Q. That was the last one, I thought

9 that was in -- oh, I'm sorry, that was in

10 1997 but your involvement ended in '97. The

11 last one you've been involved in went through

12 '98 and that was JonBenet Ramsey?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. From the time you were assigned to

15 the JonBenet Ramsey case up until the time

16 that you left, were you assigned to any other

17 homicide case?

18 A. Other than the one we noted, no.

19 Q. And I take it the JonBenet Ramsey

20 case, other than the case that you noted,

21 pretty much was your full-time job; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And have you ever had any

25 training, formal training, in handwriting

1 analysis?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Have you ever had any formal

4 training in criminal profiling?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Other than the 1997 case where you

7 obtained the confession from the spouse who

8 shot her husband while the police officer was

9 present on the premises, and other than the

10 Ramsey case, have you ever conducted any

11 other interrogations of murder suspects or

12 potential suspects?

13 A. On reported homicides, no, not

14 that I'm aware of.

15 Q. Would you be willing to authorize

16 us, subject to your counsel's recommendation

17 or right to object if he asked, would you be

18 willing to authorize us to obtain a copy of

19 your Boulder Police Department personnel file?

20 MR. DIAMOND: You don't have to

21 answer that. If you want to make a request

22 to me, I will respond.

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) How many internal

24 affairs investigations have you been the

25 subject of?

1 A. I believe just one.

2 Q. When was that?

3 A. In the early to mid part of 19 --

4 of the 1990s.

5 Q. Was that Wheat Ridge or Boulder?

6 A. That was with the Boulder Police

7 Department.

8 Q. Did that stem out of a shooting?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Or did it -- just give me a

11 general idea of what it involved.

12 A. An unauthorized vehicular pursuit.

13 Q. And that's the only one, the only

14 internal affairs investigation?

15 A. That's right. The incidents that

16 you refer to -- there was no further -- to

17 be an internal affairs complaint there has to

18 be a complainant and you mentioned the

19 shooting incident, there was no complaint.

20 Q. Is there any reason why the

21 two-page report on Chris Wolf was in your

22 book, why, for example, that was separated

23 out from the other box of materials?

24 A. No, I didn't say in my book. I

25 said in a book. And this summer when I knew

1 the Wolf case was pending, I was pleased to

2 find that folded in half and stuck in a

3 book.

4 Q. What book was it stuck in?

5 A. A book on my desk, on my library

6 shelf.

7 Q. Why were you pleased to find it?

8 A. Because I knew I would be giving

9 testimony in this case and it might help me

10 recollect some of what I did four or five

11 years ago.

12 Q. You could also refresh yourself

13 with some of the statements you made in your

14 book about Mr. Wolf, couldn't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You recall Chris Wolf, don't you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Am I correct that the Boulder

19 Police Department conducted a thorough

20 investigation of Chris Wolf?

21 A. I'm aware and was a participant in

22 the Boulder Police Department investigating

23 Mr. Wolf, yes.

24 Q. My question was though, sir, do

25 you agree that the Boulder Police Department

1 conducted a thorough investigation of Chris

2 Wolf?

3 A. I know what I did with my

4 involvement with Mr. Wolf, but I don't have

5 personal knowledge of what the detectives who

6 subsequently closed him out as a suspect did

7 to satisfy themselves.

8 Q. Well, take a look, if you would,

9 at page 273 of your book.

10 MR. DIAMOND: For the record, do

11 we have the hard cover?

12 MR. WOOD: Yeah, this is a hard

13 cover.

14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) 273 and this is

15 just in context apparently on an incident

16 you're describing that occurred on February

17 the 25th of 1998, with Mayor Bob Greenlee.

18 Do you know Mayor Greenlee?

19 MR. DIAMOND: Can you point to

20 where you are, at the top of the page?

21 MR. WOOD: Just hang on a second,

22 pay attention, you'll get there.

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) In context do you

24 recall the February incident with Mayor

25 Greenlee about Chris Wolf?

1 A. I don't recall the date being a

2 specific date in February but I certainly

3 recall meeting with Mr. Greenlee, yes, about

4 Chris Wolf.

5 Q. Look at the top of page 273. If

6 you would follow with me, quote, We need to

7 check this out, the mayor snorted. We need

8 a thorough investigation into this. End

9 quote. "I guess he wanted me to cower in

10 his presence. Greenlee trapped himself, not

11 me." Quote, We are thoroughly investigating

12 him, end quote, "I replied. Even as we

13 spoke, Chris Wolf was in an interview room

14 voluntarily giving handwriting, hair and DNA

15 samples and a statement."

16 Have you followed me?

17 A. I have followed you.

18 Q. Have I read that correctly?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So it was your understanding that

21 the Boulder Police Department was thoroughly

22 investigating Chris Wolf, true?

23 A. Yes, even contemporaneous with my

24 exchange with the mayor on that particular

25 day.

1 Q. And the investigation of Mr. Wolf

2 had started back in January of 1997; is that

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How did -- how did Chris Wolf

6 first become a suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey

7 murder investigation, Mr. Thomas?

8 A. Through a citizen informant.

9 Q. And who was that citizen

10 informant?

11 A. Jackie Dilson.

12 Q. Tell me your recollection of what

13 Jackie Dilson did that resulted in Mr. Wolf

14 becoming a suspect in the Ramsey murder

15 investigation.

16 A. I participated in a meeting with

17 Jackie Dilson in which she offered an account

18 with some dubious issues on the front end.

19 She offered a piece of physical evidence that

20 was exculpatory to Mr. Wolf. There were

21 questions surrounding her stability and mental

22 condition. Nonetheless, we investigated

23 Mr. Wolf over a period of approximately 12 to

24 15 months, during which time Ms. Wolf's --

25 MR. DIAMOND: Ms. Wolf?

1 A. I'm sorry, Ms. Dilson's accounts

2 grew increasingly suspicious by way of making

3 admissions and information known to us in a

4 less than timely fashion.

5 And then continuing to supply

6 information that became increasingly void of

7 credibility, including linking Access Graphics

8 and Lockheed Martin in some conspiracy

9 involving arms sales to "Third World countries

10 and Chris Wolf planting by way of this

11 conspiracy somehow a stun gun video inside

12 the Ramsey home.

13 Additionally, she tried to

14 implicate Mr. Wolf in other crimes, including

15 another homicide, and another individual or

16 team of detectives were assigned to attempt a

17 different tact with Mr. Wolf and were

18 successful in gaining his compliance and

19 cooperation, and I was made aware that they

20 subsequently internally cleared him from

21 involvement in the Ramsey matter.

22 MR. DIAMOND: Before you ask him

23 the next question, may I have a minute with

24 the witness?

25 MR. WOOD: If we note on the

1 record the time and it's not charged against

2 us.

3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

4 10:17. We're going off the record.

5 MR. WOOD: We don't have to go

6 off the record.

7 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Oh, never mind.

8 We're still on the record.

9 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.

10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you completed

11 your answer?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, if I am hearing you, you

14 gave me kind of a general overview of the

15 Chris Wolf matter as pertains to Jackie

16 Dilson that apparently she came to you as a

17 citizen informant, the Boulder Police

18 Department, provided information and then as

19 that information was investigated, apparently

20 you, perhaps others, felt that it was not

21 necessarily credible and had suspicions about

22 it as it pertains to Jackie Dilson, am I

23 right?

24 A. If you're asking me were there

25 questions about Jackie Dilson's credibility,

1 yes.

2 Q. But you didn't know that the first

3 day you met her, I mean you accepted on face

4 value the information and you followed up on

5 it to investigate Mr. Wolf, true?

6 A. No, no, other detectives and

7 myself who were present at that immediately

8 had serious questions about her stability and

9 credibility.

10 Q. But not so much so that you did

11 not follow up on it, true?

12 A. We followed up on dozens of such

13 suspects who came to us by way of citizen

14 information.

15 Q. We know it is true that Chris

16 Wolf was a Boulder Police Department suspect

17 in the JonBenet Ramsey investigation, right?

18 A. You used the word suspect. That

19 was always an issue inside the police

20 department who would and wouldn't be on this

21 proverbial suspect list. But as we sit here

22 today, certainly he, among many others, I

23 considered a suspect in the case.

24 Q. And you later learned that the

25 district attorney's office viewed Mr. Wolf as

1 a suspect, true?

2 A. True in that, after the fact, I

3 came to learn that they were conducting some

4 investigation that I had been previously

5 unaware of.

6 Q. It is clear from your involvement

7 that Mr. Wolf became a suspect in the

8 JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation as a

9 result of Jackie Dilson, true?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Several months later, it was

12 several months after January of 1997 before

13 any information was provided by the Ramsey --

14 John and Patsy Ramsey's investigators to law

15 enforcement about Mr. Wolf; is that true?

16 A. I'm sorry, give me that time line

17 again, Mr. Wood.

18 Q. Yeah, several -- if this helps any

19 at all as I understand it, and you may tell

20 me you don't know or you may agree with me,

21 Steve Ainsworth started looking into Chris

22 Wolf in August of 1997. Does that coincide

23 with your recollection?

24 A. No.

25 Q. When do you think Steve Ainsworth

1 began to look at him?

2 A. June of 1997.

3 Q. Okay. Subsequent to that, the

4 Ramseys' investigators began to provide some

5 information to the district attorney's office

6 about Mr. Wolf; is that your understanding?

7 A. I have no personal knowledge of

8 what the Ramsey investigators were or weren't

9 doing.

10 Q. They didn't provide you with any

11 information about Mr. Wolf, did they?

12 A. Me personally, no, not that I'm

13 aware of.

14 Q. Are you aware of any information

15 that the Ramsey investigators provided to the

16 Boulder Police Department about Mr. Wolf?

17 A. I can't speak for others, but

18 certainly none came to me directly.

19 Q. You were operating from the

20 standpoint that you were following up on Ms.

21 Dilson's information and developing and

22 investigating that information and any leads

23 or other areas that your investigation might

24 take you with respect to Chris Wolf, true?

25 A. Mr. Wolf, if I understand it

1 correctly, if you're asking me if I was

2 following up on information that Dilson

3 was --

4 Q. Mr. Wood. That's okay.

5 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Wood, that

6 Ms. Dilson was providing regarding Chris Wolf,

7 yes, I was doing that.

8 Q. You said when she first came to

9 you she provided you with a piece of

10 exculpatory evidence. What was that?

11 A. From a pillow case, Ms. Dilson

12 produced a length of rope that was

13 immediately visually inconsistent to the

14 persons present with the murder ligature in

15 the homicide case.

16 Q. Well, now how is that exculpatory.

17 You're saying it wouldn't be incriminating but

18 how does it as a piece of evidence prove to

19 be exculpatory of Mr. Wolf?

20 A. It may be a choice of words on my

21 behalf but she did not produce us -- or

22 produce any physical evidence that

23 incriminated him. There was nothing that she

24 produced that evening by way of physical

25 evidence that included him in the running, so

1 to speak.

2 Q. That would be a better way of

3 phrasing it than to say it was exculpatory,

4 wouldn't you agree?

5 A. I won't quibble with you on that,

6 Mr. Wood.

7 Q. I don't want you to quibble with

8 me. I want you to tell me whether it's a

9 more accurate statement that the evidence that

10 she presented to you with respect to the rope

11 did not incriminate Mr. Wolf, but nor did it

12 prove to be itself exculpatory of Mr. Wolf,

13 is that accurate?

14 A. Okay. True, sure.

15 Q. Okay. Tell me about the first

16 time you had a chance to meet Mr. Wolf, what

17 you recall about that.

18 A. On a particular date in January of

19 1997, shortly after Dilson's information, we

20 had Mr. Wolf brought into the police

21 department in which we had a rather

22 unpleasant exchange and little or no

23 information was obtained from him at that

24 time.

25 Q. Was his conduct at that time what

1 you would characterize as suspicious?

2 A. Everything depends on context but

3 he was not, certainly not cooperative.

4 Q. Well, didn't you ask him to write

5 certain words that were from the ransom note

6 found in the Ramsey house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And didn't he refuse to do so?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That certainly was not consistent

11 with innocence, was it?

12 A. Sometimes I've found that a lack

13 of cooperation like that may not be any more

14 indicative of guilt than a cooperative person

15 who turns out to be guilty.

16 Q. So someone's refusal to cooperate

17 with you by either agreeing to an interview

18 or submitting to a handwriting exemplar is

19 not viewed by you necessarily as being

20 indicative of guilt, true?

21 A. It's not evidence.

22 Q. Well, you said, I believe, that

23 you have found that a lack of cooperation

24 like that may not be any more indicative of

25 guilt than a cooperative person who turns out

1 to be guilty; is that right?

2 A. Yeah, in response to your

3 question.

4 Q. So let me put it in the terms

5 that you put it. It is not evidence of

6 guilt by simply refusing to cooperate with

7 the police by either agreeing to an interview

8 or submitting to a handwriting exemplar, true?

9 A. Are you reading back to me my

10 statement or your question?

11 Q. I'm asking you a question. Don't

12 worry about what I'm reading; I'm asking you

13 a question.

14 A. Repeat the question for me,

15 please.

16 Q. It is not evidence of guilt on

17 the part of someone who simply refuses to

18 cooperate with the police by either agreeing

19 to an interview or submitting to a

20 handwriting exemplar, true?

21 MR. DIAMOND: If that's what he

22 said that doesn't make sense.

23 A. I have lost you one more time,

24 Mr. Wood.

25 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't

1 understand the question?

2 A. No.

3 Q. An individual who is not

4 cooperative and does not agree to a police

5 interview or agree to a police request to

6 provide a handwriting exemplar, that refusal

7 to cooperate is not evidence of that

8 individual's guilt, true?

9 A. I would agree with that.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. In that context.

12 Q. In what context?

13 A. We're talking about Mr. Wolf here.

14 Q. Well, I was talking about any

15 individual.

16 A. Then repeat the question to me,

17 please.

18 Q. An individual who is not

19 cooperative and does not agree to a police

20 interview or agree to a police request to

21 provide a handwriting exemplar, that

22 individual's refusal to cooperate is not

23 itself evidence of that individual's guilt,

24 true?

25 A. That is not evidence you can take

1 to a judge in an affidavit, certainly not.

2 Q. Not evidence of guilt?

3 A. Not evidence in a courtroom, as I

4 understand it.

5 Q. Okay. The -- there is the use of

6 the word hobbled, do you know what that

7 means?

8 A. In the context of police work?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. What does that mean to hobble

12 somebody?

13 A. When you have a violent or a

14 physically resistive or combative individual

15 or suspect who you cannot otherwise control,

16 the hobbling procedure, as I understand it,

17 beyond handcuffs behind the back include

18 restraining the ankles and legs through the

19 use of what is called a hobble.

20 Q. When you first met Chris Wolf and

21 had this incident you have generally described

22 for us, did you have to hobble him?

23 A. I think I was involved in that

24 personally. He was hobbled before he was

25 transported to jail.

1 Q. Who helped you hobble him?

2 A. There were other officers present

3 and I don't know that -- I can't speak for

4 Gosage but if I participated, and I may very

5 well have, there were other people present,

6 including I think a Detective Whiten, a

7 traffic sergeant, Detective Chromiak, maybe

8 some uniform people.

9 Q. Why did you all have to hobble

10 him?

11 A. Because he was physically

12 uncooperative and resistive.

13 Q. How did you hobble him? In other

14 words, you said it is always putting

15 handcuffs behind the back and restraining the

16 ankles and legs. Is that the standard

17 technique?

18 A. Yes, that's my --

19 Q. One way to do it?

20 A. -- that's my recollection of how

21 he was hobbled that day.

22 Q. Would he let you take a picture

23 of him?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you get any information from

1 him in terms of being able to get answers to

2 any questions?

3 A. As was the case with most of the

4 interviews, I'm sure there's a transcription

5 that will bear it out, but I don't recall,

6 as we sit here today, what information we may

7 have gotten from him in that interview room

8 that particular day.

9 Q. Do you know if you got any?

10 A. As I sit here now, I don't know

11 that we got any information from him that

12 day, maybe beyond the name, rank, serial

13 number type of personal information.

14 Q. Do you know how it came to be

15 that he was stopped by the Boulder Police

16 Department and brought to the office?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. Tell me about that.

19 A. The confidential informant in this

20 case --

21 Q. That's Ms. Dilson?

22 A. Ms. Dilson.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. Wanted to remain confidential as

25 she had some concerns. And in attempting to

1 maintain her CI status, we used a ruse with

2 some information that she had provided us

3 about Mr. Wolf's driving record and had him

4 stopped and picked up legally on that basis.

5 Q. Why did you want him to provide

6 you with a handwriting exemplar from the

7 Ramsey ransom note?

8 A. Because when information came into

9 the Boulder Police Department suggesting as in

10 this case as detailed as Jackie Dilson made

11 it appear, someone's possible involvement in

12 this homicide, we had to have some sort of

13 initial screening process that was done on

14 scores of people where you try to obtain

15 non-testimonial physical evidence to see if

16 there was anything linking a particular

17 individual to the ransom note or the crime,

18 as well as a preliminary interview and/or

19 alibi confirmation.

20 Q. You didn't on -- in January you

21 did not get a preliminary interview with

22 Chris Wolf, right, tried but failed?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Didn't get a handwriting exemplar,

25 right?

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Didn't get any non testimony --

3 testimonial physical evidence from him, did

4 you?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. He really, short of not

7 cooperating and becoming violent sufficiently

8 that he had to be hobbled, you really weren't

9 able to conduct any type of an initial

10 screening process on Chris Wolf in January of

11 1997, true?

12 A. True.

13 Q. And then it was 1998, February of

14 1998, when you were finally able to get him

15 to provide non-testimonial evidence?

16 A. As I said earlier, I'm not real

17 sure of the date or it being February but

18 I'll --

19 Q. Take a look at your book; it may

20 be helpful in that. 271, the bottom of the

21 page. "On February 25th the mayor chewed me

22 out." Does that help you?

23 A. Sure.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. I --

1 Q. So in February of 1998, that's

2 when the Boulder Police Department first

3 obtained non-testimonial evidence from Chris

4 Wolf, hair sample, DNA sample, and handwriting

5 exemplar, right?

6 A. To my knowledge, yes.

7 Q. What was his alibi?

8 A. Well, as I mentioned earlier very

9 briefly, after this difficult encounter with

10 Mr. Wolf by Detective Gosage and myself, it

11 was determined at some level to attempt a

12 different tact at gaining his cooperation.

13 And so they put Detective Weinheimer, possibly

14 others, on to that lead and they took it

15 from there. And I don't know, I don't have

16 any personal knowledge of how they wound up

17 coming to the determination that he was

18 cleared other than letting the others in the

19 investigative team know that he had been

20 sufficiently cleared.

21 Q. You don't know on what basis?

22 A. I don't.

23 Q. You don't know what Chris Wolf's

24 alibi was?

25 A. I do not.

1 Q. Chris Wolf has indicated to us

2 that he was never asked to take a polygraph

3 exam. Do you have any factual information to

4 dispute that?

5 A. I don't have any knowledge of

6 that.

7 Q. If Jackie Dilson said Chris Wolf

8 lived with her and that I believe she woke

9 on the morning of the 26th of December and

10 he was coming out of the shower and that his

11 clothes were dirty, do you recall that being

12 information provided by Ms. Dilson?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If that were his only alibi, that

15 is to say, well, I was at home with Jackie

16 Dilson who I lived with at the time and

17 Jackie Dilson who he lived with at the time

18 came to the police with suspicions that he

19 might have been involved in the murder,

20 wouldn't you ask Mr. Wolf to, as you say,

21 sit down on the box, get on the box and take

22 a polygraph exam to see how he did on that

23 alibi?

24 A. Certainly. There are many people

25 in this case I would have liked to have

1 steered toward the box.

2 Q. I'm asking you about Mr. Wolf.

3 Wouldn't that be standard procedure with an

4 alibi that is related only to being with the

5 person who thinks that you may have been

6 involved in the murder that you would say,

7 well, Mr. Wolf, if that's your alibi that you

8 weren't out that night let's put it -- put

9 you on a polygraph exam and see what you

10 say; wouldn't that be standard procedure?

11 A. Certainly in some departments but

12 it had been my experience that the Boulder

13 Police Department had never embraced and had

14 no policy, that I'm aware of, in place

15 regarding polygraphy.

16 Q. So there was no standard practice

17 in the Boulder Police Department about when

18 to seek a polygraph examination from a

19 suspect?

20 A. For example, in other departments

21 who have in-house polygraphers.

22 Q. Well, I'm asking you about the

23 Boulder Police Department?

24 A. I'm trying to get to that.

25 Q. Let's get to that for me, if you

1 would, please.

2 MR. DIAMOND: Let him finish.

3 A. Regarding the Boulder Police

4 Department, there was no in-house polygrapher

5 and it didn't appear to me that there was

6 any sort of a policy in place, although I

7 personally favored the use of polygraphs in

8 some cases. In which to -- and how it was

9 necessarily applied, we certainly were able to

10 polygraph some other potential suspects in

11 this case but I don't know that Mr. Wolf

12 ever was.

13 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't have any

14 basis to dispute his statement that he was

15 never asked to take a polygraph, do you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And do you -- are you aware of

18 any efforts by the Boulder Police Department

19 to ever obtain Mr. Wolf's computer and the

20 hard drive from his computer to have it

21 analyzed as part of its thorough

22 investigation?

23 A. If I recall correctly, Jackie

24 Dilson early in this investigation of

25 Mr. Wolf had volunteered to me that she would

1 supply me with items belonging to Mr. Wolf,

2 bed sheets, underwear, writings, et cetera,

3 and I explained to her that she could not

4 act as an agent on behalf of law enforcement.

5 And she may have volunteered the computer

6 equipment you mentioned.

7 Q. But you didn't accept her offer?

8 A. I couldn't.

9 Q. Because you thought it would raise

10 questions of chain of custody and

11 admissibility?

12 A. Not because I thought so. Because

13 that, if my understanding is correct and I

14 think the legal advisor and even Hofstrom,

15 you can't have a private citizen act as an

16 agent on your behalf to circumvent a search

17 warrant.

18 Q. Well, you couldn't -- you could

19 test the material and gain potentially

20 valuable information even if that information

21 might not be admissible in court, couldn't

22 you, sir?

23 A. I wasn't trained that way in the

24 least. And I know from dope work, you can't

25 use a citizen to act as your agent.

1 Q. So if Jackie Dilson walks in and

2 says here is a piece of evidence, here is a

3 rope --

4 A. Sir.

5 Q. -- did you tell her, did you say

6 wait a minute, I can't take that rope from

7 you, Ms. Dilson?

8 A. Very different.

9 Q. How is that different --

10 A. Here we --

11 Q. -- her offering to bring you

12 articles of clothing or his computer?

13 A. It's my understanding, and here is

14 the difference, is she volunteered evidence on

15 the front end without any prior knowledge on

16 our behalf, which is acceptable, according to

17 our in-house legal advisor.

18 But when an individual makes it

19 known to you as a detective that they would

20 go out and seek to gather evidence on your

21 behalf and bring that to you for testing,

22 that's entirely inappropriate.

23 Q. Did you have after Mr. -- based

24 on Ms. Dilson's statements to you and

25 Mr. Wolf's actions when you had him brought

1 in under the ruse, did you have probable

2 cause at that time in your view to obtain a

3 search warrant of Ms. Dilson's property to

4 obtain items of evidence to be analyzed?

5 A. As a matter of fact, I went to

6 Mr. Hofstrom, at the time the chief trial

7 deputy in the DA's office, and this was just

8 one of scores of examples in which we needed

9 the power of the DA's office either through

10 warrant or preferably grand jury subpoena to

11 secure evidence.

12 And during the course of, it's

13 been my experience, during the course of '97

14 and '98 received certainly no grand jury, but

15 very little support from Mr. Hofstrom in the

16 DA's office and in this case made my

17 Detective Sergeant Wickman aware of our

18 inability based mostly on the DA's office

19 reluctance to move forward further

20 investigating Wolf at that time.

21 Q. Thank you. My question was, did

22 you have in your mind probable cause

23 sufficient to obtain a search warrant of Ms.

24 Dilson's residence to obtain items of evidence

25 based on the information she had provided to

1 you and the conduct of Mr. Wolf when you had

2 him in the office under the ruse?

3 MR. DIAMOND: Did he conclude then

4 or are you asking him to look now in

5 hindsight?

6 MR. WOOD: I think my question is

7 extremely clear.

8 MR. DIAMOND: Reread it, please.

9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I would be glad to

10 do it. My question was, did you have in

11 your mind probable cause sufficent to obtain

12 a search warrant of Ms. Dilson's residence to

13 obtain items of evidence based on the

14 information she had provided to the department

15 and the conduct of Mr. Wolf when you had him

16 in the police department under the ruse. Did

17 you think as a police officer that you had

18 probable cause to get a warrant to get these

19 items and property?

20 A. I understand the question,

21 Mr. Wood.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. What is the

23 answer?

24 A. The answer is one of the items

25 that I or anyone else would have relied on

1 to put within the four corners of a warrant

2 affidavit did not include any physical

3 evidence and would have been based almost

4 soley on the information provided by an

5 unreliable, mentally unstable informant. And

6 I would have had -- I don't know that I

7 would have put forth my name on a search

8 warrant affidavit and taken it to a judge

9 based solely on Jackie Dilson's information.

10 Q. I didn't ask you that. I asked

11 you based on Jackie Dilson's information and

12 Mr. Wolf's conduct when you had him in the

13 department under the ruse?

14 A. Well, I'm not making my answer

15 clear obviously to you.

16 Q. I don't think you are but maybe

17 I'm not understanding it.

18 A. No. I'm saying I did not have

19 sufficient facts and circumstances to put in

20 a warrant affidavit.

21 Q. When did you conclude that Jackie

22 Dilson was unreliable and mentally unstable?

23 Did you conclude that on the first meeting

24 with her?

25 A. Yes, Mr. Wood. And I suggest you

1 read that transcript and the comments of the

2 other detectives walking out of the office

3 that night. It was -- she had, God bless

4 her, mental health problems. She's on

5 medication. She's an alcoholic and just was

6 not deemed terribly reliable. But

7 nonetheless, we chose to move forward with

8 that information and look at Mr. Wolf.

9 Q. Let me make sure I understand how

10 the Boulder Police Department was working now.

11 You were involved at this time specifically

12 with Chris Wolf, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So if I understand you --

15 MR. DIAMOND: Can he answer the

16 question?

17 A. At what time?

18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You said yes, at

19 this time in January of 1997 so here is what

20 I understand. You, Mr. Thomas, as a

21 detective of the Boulder Police Department

22 took an individual that you decided in one

23 meeting was on medication, was an alcoholic,

24 was not reliable, had mental problems, was

25 mentally unstable, and you set up a ruse to

1 have a man brought into the Boulder Police

2 Department to try to get him to give you a

3 handwriting exemplar of the Ramsey note, to

4 try to get his photograph, and then you

5 hobbled this man based on an informant that

6 you tell me today was an alcoholic, mentally

7 unstable and unreliable; is that the way you

8 did business with Mr. Wolf?

9 A. She provided sufficient details

10 that warranted looking further at Mr. Wolf.

11 Q. So, I mean, you felt like you

12 then did have a legitimate basis to

13 investigate Mr. Wolf as a suspect in the

14 case, even though you had some concerns about

15 Ms. Dilson's reliability and mental status; is

16 that a fair statement?

17 A. As I just said, there -- she

18 provided some sufficient details to look

19 further at Mr. Wolf in this case.

20 Q. So you felt like, then, that you

21 did have a legitimate basis to investigate

22 Mr. Wolf as a suspect in the case even

23 though you had some concerns about

24 Ms. Dilson's reliability and mental status; is

25 that a fair statement?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Back when you all had

3 the June 1998 presentation that is referred

4 to -- is that referred to as the VIP

5 presentation?

6 A. We can refer to it as that.

7 Q. Did you ever hear it referred to

8 as that when you had the VIPs there?

9 A. I think so.

10 Q. Let's refer to it as the June

11 1998 VIP presentation so we know what we're

12 talking about. Did, in fact, the detectives

13 during that presentation present a long list

14 of suspects who had been considered and

15 dropped, including Randy Simons, Kevin

16 Rayburn, Bud Henderson, Linda Hoffman-Pugh,

17 Joe Barnhill and Chris Wolf?

18 A. I would certainly have to review

19 any notes and reports from the police files

20 on that, but that's not inconsistent with my

21 recollection.

22 Q. You recall then the presentation

23 including a statement that Chris Wolf was a

24 suspect who had been eliminated?

25 A. No, that's not what I'm saying.

1 What I am saying is I don't recall that --

2 there was a lot of information exchanged over

3 two days at this VIP presentation. It very

4 well may have been said but you asked me

5 right now, I don't have that specific

6 recollection about that particular individual.

7 Q. Do you know whether Chris Wolf's

8 DNA was ever tested?

9 A. I have no personal knowledge of

10 that.

11 Q. Was Chris Wolf one of the 73

12 individuals, that number that you referenced

13 with respect to your comments about 73

14 suspects having their handwriting analyzed, is

15 he one of the 73?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Well, how did you come up with

18 the number 73?

19 A. From Detective Trujillo's briefing

20 to other detectives about CBI's examinations.

21 Q. Do you know whether -- do you

22 know as a fact firsthand or from what you've

23 heard whether Chris Wolf's handwriting was

24 ever analyzed by the Boulder Police

25 Department?

1 A. As I said previously, I don't know

2 the details of Detective Weinheimer's

3 subsequent investigation of Chris Wolf.

4 Q. Is the answer no, you don't know?

5 A. The answer to what?

6 Q. To my question.

7 A. What is the question, sir?

8 Q. Listen carefully. From -- my

9 question was, do you know as a fact,

10 firsthand or from what you heard, whether

11 Chris Wolf's handwriting was ever analyzed by

12 the Boulder Police Department, yes or no?

13 A. I don't know that.

14 Q. Do you know?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 Q. Okay. Do you know whether

17 Mr. Wolf, I guess you can tell me this is

18 pretty easy, maybe you'll understand this one.

19 Clearly you don't know whether he was -- his

20 handwriting eliminated him as the author of

21 the note, do you?

22 A. As I have said, I don't know the

23 details of Detective Weinheimer's investigation

24 but took Detective Weinheimer's statement that

25 Chris Wolf was cleared at face value.

1 Q. Knowing what you know about how

2 the Boulder Police Department, what would one

3 use to clear someone, what could possibly

4 clear an individual here? One would be a

5 solid alibi, right?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Verified, right?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. What else?

10 A. Handwriting, certainly.

11 Q. Handwriting. That eliminated John

12 Ramsey as the author of the ransom note?

13 A. Is that a question?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. What is your question?

16 Q. You said handwriting and I said

17 handwriting, that eliminated John Ramsey as

18 the author of the ransom note, true?

19 A. That's my understanding.

20 Q. All right. What else besides

21 alibi and handwriting?

22 A. I don't know what was being done

23 with it on the back end, but certainly a

24 polygraph examination.

25 Q. So you would eliminate based

1 solely on a polygraph?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. You would take it

4 into consideration?

5 MR. DIAMOND: You have to answer

6 audibly.

7 A. We would take our polygraph

8 examinations into consideration, yes, sir.

9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) All of your

10 polygraph examinations were done by the FBI,

11 weren't they?

12 A. I believe so.

13 Q. You didn't have anybody on the

14 Boulder Police Department that was trained in

15 polygraph examinations, did you?

16 A. I don't know if anybody received

17 polygraph training but we did not have an

18 in-house polygrapher.

19 Q. Okay. So we've got alibi,

20 handwriting, polygraph, what else?

21 MR. DIAMOND: Polygraph coupled

22 with other things he said.

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, yeah,

24 polygraph alone would not be sufficient to

25 clear someone, would it?

1 A. Not necessarily, no.

2 Q. Right. So now what else could be

3 utilized, as you understood this

4 investigation, to clear a suspect?

5 A. Witnesses.

6 Q. Witnesses as to alibi?

7 A. Yes, certainly that.

8 Q. Witnesses as to what else?

9 A. Well, I think you're hitting the

10 highlights. Beyond that, I don't know how

11 specifically those determinations beyond that,

12 the obvious, people were being cleared.

13 Q. You're familiar with the use of

14 the term forensics, aren't you?

15 A. I am.

16 Q. What would be forensic evidence

17 that could clear someone in the JonBenet

18 Ramsey investigation?

19 A. Handwriting.

20 Q. Anything else?

21 MR. DIAMOND: You're saying

22 standing by itself?

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Standing by itself,

24 if I were going to say, well, John Doe has

25 been eliminated as a suspect in the JonBenet

1 Ramsey investigation based on forensic

2 evidence, what is the only forensic evidence

3 that you were aware of that could have itself

4 eliminated someone from being involved?

5 A. Besides the handwriting?

6 Q. I want the answer. If it's

7 handwriting, if there was anything else, let

8 me know that.

9 A. Well, I know the big controversy

10 -- thank you very much -- was whether or not

11 DNA was clearing people in this case.

12 Q. And ultimately it was not, was it?

13 A. I don't know. I certainly don't

14 hold myself out as a DNA expert.

15 Q. No, but I mean, you knew the

16 approach the investigation was taking from the

17 time of your involvement through August of

18 '98 and the DNA either quite simply either

19 eliminated everybody or it eliminated nobody

20 if it wasn't a match, true?

21 A. There was a huge controversy about

22 the DNA.

23 Q. So it was not in and of itself

24 viewed as a forensic piece of evidence that

25 eliminated anyone, was it?

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Other than handwriting, what else

3 was the basis for a forensic evidence that

4 would eliminate someone as a suspect in the

5 Ramsey case?

6 A. May I have just a moment?

7 Q. Sure.

8 (Discussion off the record between

9 the deponent and Mr. Diamond.)

10 A. Mr. Wood, unless I'm missing

11 something entirely obvious, no, the

12 handwriting, the ransom note, et cetera, was

13 the sort of cornerstone piece of evidence in

14 this case and I think that's how most people

15 were being cleared.

16 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, when you say

17 most people were being cleared, had the

18 Boulder Police Department concluded that the

19 murderer and the author of the note were one

20 and the same, that is to say, had the

21 Boulder Police Department concluded that there

22 could not have been involvement by more than

23 one person?

24 A. I think there was some division on

25 that point.

1 Q. Because actually the handwriting,

2 only if eliminated under analysis, only really

3 eliminates an individual as the author of the

4 note but does not in and of itself eliminate

5 the person from involvement in the crime,

6 true?

7 A. I think the collective consensus

8 was that certainly it wasn't a leap the

9 author of the note was involved in the crime.

10 Q. I don't think that would be a

11 leap. But the question is elimination as the

12 author of the note did not in and of itself

13 eliminate one from involvement in the crime,

14 true?

15 A. By way of a conspiracy that you're

16 suggesting that --

17 Q. I'm just suggesting straight up,

18 sir, handwriting analysis that eliminates you

19 as the author of the note does not in and of

20 itself eliminate you from involvement in the

21 crime, true?

22 A. One could argue that, yes, sir.

23 Q. Fiber evidence was not a forensic

24 test that was used to eliminate in and of

25 itself, was it?

1 A. As far as elimination of suspects,

2 I don't have firsthand knowledge of the fiber

3 evidence testing and that wasn't an assignment

4 I had in this case. But no, I don't believe

5 that fiber evidence in and of itself was any

6 sort of eliminator.

7 Q. Do you know whether any fiber

8 tests were ever conducted on non-testimonial

9 evidence voluntarily provided by Chris Wolf,

10 any fibers ever tested to your knowledge?

11 A. I got the impression that it was.

12 Q. Where did you get that impression?

13 A. From Jackie Dilson after she

14 turned over to Investigator Ainsworth and/or

15 Smit in June of '97 what she told me were, I

16 think, bed linens, a leather jacket, a diary,

17 maybe underwear, and she told me that she had

18 been told they were going to submit that for

19 testing.

20 Q. Do you know whether it was tested?

21 A. I do not.

22 Q. Do you -- you certainly have no

23 idea of what any of the results would have

24 been if tested, true?

25 A. Correct.

100

1 Q. Do you know how many handwriting

2 exemplars Mr. Wolf gave?

3 A. No, as I said before I don't know

4 the breadth or depth or extent of Mr. --

5 Detective Weinheimer's investigation into

6 Mr. Wolf.

7 Q. What was the standard practice in

8 terms of when you were obtaining handwriting

9 exemplars from suspects for analysis, how many

10 exemplars were standardly obtained?

11 A. It's my recollection that

12 initially, and I can only speak to what

13 myself and Gosage were doing routinely, we

14 were asking for the voluntary completion of

15 what is known as a London letter, as well as

16 a second sheet including words or phrases

17 from the ransom note and that initial screen

18 was what I'm assuming after booked into

19 evidence was eventually going to CBI for

20 analysis to see if there was any reason to

21 further investigate an individual.

22 Q. Your understanding is there were

23 73 suspects whose handwriting was analyzed?

24 A. At the time of the VIP

25 presentation, at the time I left, yes --

101

1 Q. June of 1998?

2 A. -- that was the number.

3 Q. And of those 73, how many of

4 those individuals were eliminated as the

5 author of the note based on the handwriting

6 analysis itself?

7 A. And I'm not a handwriting expert,

8 but under entire elimination, I don't know.

9 Q. I don't want to know about entire

10 elimination unless you're using that in a

11 phrase, maybe you are. I want to -- you've

12 got 73 people whose handwriting was tested,

13 and you've either got a result from CBI that

14 says we've got a match, right, or you've got

15 a result from CBI that says basically

16 inconclusive or you've got a result from CBI

17 that says elimination, right?

18 A. No, I don't think it's that

19 simple.

20 Q. Well, I'm not trying to make it

21 more complicated than that. But maybe you

22 know more about it and if you do, then, that

23 would be helpful for me to learn. I want to

24 know, though, from the bottom line that we

25 can agree that it is simple when it comes to

102

1 the question of elimination, that's simple

2 because that's one of the categories,

3 elimination --

4 A. Right.

5 Q. -- right?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. And how many of the 73 were

8 eliminated as the author of the note based on

9 the handwriting examples or exemplars?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Not many, true?

12 A. I know that the majority fell into

13 the no evidence to indicate category.

14 Q. But they couldn't go to

15 elimination, could they?

16 A. Again, I don't know.

17 Q. Didn't you talk with the

18 handwriting expert, sir?

19 A. Are we talking about the CBI

20 expert?

21 Q. Any of them. There were four

22 with respect to Patsy Ramsey, weren't there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many other of the 73 had four

25 different examiners look at their handwriting?

103

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Do you know of any? Can you name

3 one?

4 A. I'm trying to recall with those

5 three additional examiners if other suspects'

6 historical writings or exemplars were provided

7 to them. As I sit here today, I don't know.

8 But if any, the number would be few.

9 Q. Do you know whether the Boulder

10 Police Department obtained historical writings

11 with respect to Chris Wolf's handwriting?

12 A. I don't know. I didn't get very

13 far with Mr. Wolf, Mr. White -- or Mr. Wood,

14 I'm sorry.

15 Q. That's okay. Fleet White's

16 handwriting was tested?

17 A. I believe so, yes.

18 Q. Was he eliminated?

19 A. He fell into a category that he

20 was no longer, if my understanding is

21 correct, and this wasn't my assignment, but

22 by way of detective briefings, Mr. White was

23 not in the running, if you will, by way of a

24 handwriting exemplar.

25 Q. My question is not in the running.

104

1 My question is was he eliminated as the

2 author of the note based on a handwriting

3 analysis conducted by the Boulder Police

4 Department or the CBI?

5 A. I don't know what the CBI expert

6 concluded as far as a categorical elimination

7 of Mr. White.

8 Q. John Ramsey was categorically

9 eliminated, wasn't he?

10 A. Again I would liken it to

11 Mr. White. I simply learned that Mr. Ramsey

12 was not a candidate based on his handwriting.

13 Q. You don't know whether John Ramsey

14 was eliminated by the examiner at CBI as an

15 author of the note based on that and his --

16 the analysis of his exemplars, you don't know

17 that as we sit here today?

18 A. He may very well have fallen into

19 that majority of no evidence to indicate but

20 if you're telling me that he fell into the

21 elimination category, I won't dispute that

22 because we never had any concerns after some

23 of these results that he was the author of

24 the note.

25 Q. Well, the question is not what I'm

105

1 suggesting to you. Do you know? Do you

2 have any idea whether his report from CBI

3 came back and said John Ramsey has been

4 eliminated based on the CBI analysis as the

5 author of the ransom note? Do you know one

6 way or the other, sir?

7 A. As to what category he fell into?

8 Q. Whether he was eliminated by the

9 CBI analysis is my question, please, sir?

10 A. As to the category he fell into,

11 including a category of elimination, I don't

12 have personal knowledge.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge,

14 secondary or otherwise?

15 A. As I told you a minute ago,

16 Mr. Wood, it was my understanding from our

17 briefings that he was not a candidate as the

18 author of the note. I don't know what else

19 I can -- how many ways I can answer that

20 question for you.

21 Q. I just want to know if you know

22 the results of the CBI analysis of John

23 Ramsey's handwriting?

24 MR. DIAMOND: Any more clearly

25 than he just told you?

106

1 MR. WOOD: That's my question.

2 Do you want to answer for him? Because if

3 so --

4 MR. DIAMOND: I think you --

5 MR. WOOD: -- I would love to

6 swear you in and examine you under oath, but

7 I think it would be a waste of our time.

8 MR. DIAMOND: I think you're not

9 listening to the answers. We're not --

10 MR. WOOD: Why don't you worry

11 about your side of the table and let me

12 worry about mine. If I'm not understanding

13 him, that's my fault. I mean, it's my walk

14 away without the information, right? I think

15 I'm understanding. I'm just not sure I'm

16 getting a straight answer. It seems to me

17 that this gentleman should know, as he claims

18 to be one of the lead detectives on the

19 case, whether John Ramsey's CBI handwriting

20 analysis came back elimination.

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) And you don't

22 know, do you?

23 A. As I have told you, Mr. Wood, I

24 stand on my answer, yeah, I know that he was

25 not -- that he was eliminated by way of

107

1 handwriting. But if you're asking me if the

2 CBI examiner reached a conclusion of

3 elimination, I'm sitting here again telling

4 you I don't have personal knowledge of that.

5 Q. Let me go that route because I

6 think I understand you. Do you know how

7 many of the 73 individuals were eliminated by

8 way of handwriting?

9 A. By way of falling into the

10 category of elimination.

11 Q. That were eliminated by way of

12 handwriting, your words.

13 MR. DIAMOND: I think he means by

14 the Boulder Police Department.

15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I mean that were

16 eliminated by way of handwriting, certainly by

17 the Boulder Police Department. You're the

18 one that says 73?

19 A. Out of those 73?

20 Q. Out of those 73, I want to know

21 how many were eliminated by way of

22 handwriting?

23 A. If you're asking me how many of

24 those 73 fell into the elimination category

25 based on question document examiner

108

1 conclusions, is that what you're asking me?

2 Q. I think so.

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. What is the answer?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. You don't have any idea?

7 A. No. As I have previously said on

8 the record that number is probably very few.

9 The majority of those, as I have said, fell

10 into the no evidence to indicate category.

11 Q. Did a lot of them have

12 similarities?

13 A. Did a lot of who?

14 Q. A lot of the 73 people, did their

15 -- did their analysis show similarities?

16 A. I don't know, I'm not a

17 handwriting expert.

18 Q. Did you review the reports on any

19 of the 73?

20 A. Have you seen the -- if you've

21 seen the CBI reports, that's not how they're

22 stated in a narrative form like that. No, I

23 never saw anything like that.

24 Q. Nor does the CBI do handwriting

25 analysis and reach a conclusion, for example,

109

1 that 24 of 26 letters of the alphabet are

2 similar, they don't do that, do they, sir?

3 A. Well, according to Detective

4 Sergeant Wickman, he came back and told us

5 that.

6 Q. But you know that Mr. Ubowski has

7 in fact denied that as being accurate?

8 A. No, I don't know that.

9 Q. You didn't see his statement with

10 respect to the fact that he had never

11 concluded anything about Patsy Ramsey in terms

12 of 24 of 26 letters of the alphabet being

13 similar?

14 A. Well, you can ask --

15 Q. I'm asking you this question,

16 please.

17 A. I know and I'm trying to answer

18 it for you.

19 Q. Please do.

20 A. Wickman came back from CBI and

21 told that to John Eller and he told that to

22 me and that was Trujillo's account and other

23 detectives were told that.

24 Q. You didn't hear it from Ubowski?

25 A. No, I didn't deal with Ubowski.

110

1 Q. You didn't see it in writing from

2 Ubowski?

3 A. No.

4 Q. After your book came out you

5 weren't aware that Ubowski publicly stated

6 that he had never concluded that Patsy Ramsey

7 was the author of the note and that he had

8 never concluded that 24 of the 26 letters of

9 the alphabet from her writing were similar?

10 A. Well, you had two questions.

11 Q. Are you familiar with my question?

12 MR. DIAMOND: Will you let him

13 answer the question, please?

14 MR. WOOD: I will. I think I've

15 let him answer every question so far.

16 MR. DIAMOND: You didn't. You

17 didn't.

18 MR. WOOD: Well, I'm certainly

19 going to because I want to get his answer to

20 every question. Let's let him do it. I'll

21 restate it.

22 MR. DIAMOND: I would like the

23 reporter to reread it.

24 MR. WOOD: I'll withdraw it and

25 restate it.

111

1 MR. DIAMOND: All right.

2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) After your book

3 came out, sir, were you aware that

4 Mr. Ubowski publicly denied the accuracy of

5 the statement that he concluded Patsy Ramsey

6 wrote the ransom note?

7 A. No. You're telling me this for

8 the first time.

9 Q. Are you familiar that Mr. Ubowski

10 stated that he had never reached the

11 conclusion that 24 of her letters out of the

12 26 letters of the alphabet were matched with

13 the ransom note?

14 A. No, I have not heard that.

15 Q. And you stated to the contrary in

16 your book, didn't you?

17 A. Yeah, I stated what I was told by

18 my detective sergeant.

19 Q. And you weren't even, I guess,

20 aware that Mr. Ubowski and the CBI said they

21 don't even make that kind of analysis with

22 respect to the 24 out of the 26 letters of

23 the alphabet, you don't know anything about

24 that --

25 A. No.

112

1 Q. -- in terms of the public

2 statement by the CBI after your book was

3 published?

4 A. The CBI made a public statement?

5 Q. Yes, sir.

6 A. As an organization, I haven't seen

7 that.

8 MR. WOOD: I'll show it to you

9 when we come back a little bit later on.

10 Let's take five minutes.

11 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

12 11:06. We're going off the record. This is

13 the end of tape one.

14 (Recess taken from 11:06 a.m. to

15 11:15 a.m.)

16 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

17 11:15. We're back on the record. This is

18 the beginning of tape two.

19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I think you told

20 me this, but I want to make sure so we don't

21 leave here with any confusion on this point.

22 Do you know whether the DNA of Chris Wolf

23 was ever tested by law enforcement

24 authorities?

25 A. Once again, no, I don't have

113

1 personal knowledge of that.

2 Q. Thank you. Do you have any

3 knowledge, and I'm including not personal but

4 secondhand, but did you ever hear anything

5 about whether his DNA was tested from anyone,

6 doesn't have to be personal knowledge to you,

7 did you ever get it hearsay or otherwise that

8 his DNA had been tested?

9 A. No, as I sit here right now,

10 Mr. Wood, yeah, I don't have any recollection

11 of any of -- conversation about Mr. Wolf's

12 DNA testing.

13 Q. And I take it from what you've

14 told me, you would have no idea why Tom

15 Wickman might have contacted Chris Wolf in

16 1999 asking him at the time that Wolf lived

17 in New Orleans, asking him to come by the

18 Boulder Police Department on his next visit

19 to Boulder; you would have no knowledge about

20 that, would you?

21 A. What was the time period?

22 Q. 1999.

23 A. No. No, of course not.

24 Q. Was in fact Chris Wolf

25 investigated in any fashion by the Boulder

114

1 Police Department in connection with the

2 murder of Susannah Chase?

3 A. I believe so, yes.

4 Q. Was he a suspect in this case?

5 A. Courtesy of Jackie Dilson, I

6 believe so.

7 Q. And was he cleared with respect to

8 the Susannah Chase murder?

9 A. Again, I believe so.

10 Q. Do you know why or on what basis

11 he was cleared?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever get any hearsay from

14 any of the detectives about what basis they

15 relied on in clearing Chris Wolf in either

16 the Susannah Chase murder or the JonBenet

17 Ramsey murder?

18 A. For some reason, and I don't know

19 why this stands out, that Yamaguchi, the

20 detective who led the Chase murder, I

21 believe, I think they had DNA evidence in

22 that case.

23 Q. How about with the JonBenet Ramsey

24 case, any hearsay as to what he -- the basis

25 upon which he was allegedly cleared?

115

1 A. No. If I'm answering the same

2 question, yeah.

3 Q. Just trying to make sure I've got

4 your answer down. You don't -- you didn't

5 hear from a hearsay standpoint, you didn't

6 get anything from any of the detectives about

7 the basis upon which he was allegedly cleared

8 by the department, right?

9 A. No, other than relying on

10 Weinheimer's clearance of him.

11 Q. The statement that he is cleared?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. But you don't know why --

14 A. Right.

15 Q. -- or any basis, right?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Secondhand or otherwise, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, you do know that after the

20 Boulder Police Department had investigated

21 Mr. Wolf, that the district attorney's office

22 was still actively investigating an intruder

23 theory and that Fleet White, Bill McReynolds

24 and Chris Wolf were on the top of their

25 suspect list. You do know that to be true,

116

1 don't you, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that would have been in 1998?

4 A. As to when the DA's office was

5 conducting this investigation?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. They were doing a lot of things

8 we were entirely unaware of. But if you're

9 telling me they were doing that in 1998, I

10 won't contest it.

11 Q. Well, what you do know is that

12 the Boulder Police Department investigated

13 Chris Wolf as a suspect and you know that

14 even after the Boulder Police Department had

15 investigated him that the Boulder district

16 attorney's office was still investigating

17 Chris Wolf as a suspect and that he was,

18 along with Fleet White and Bill McReynolds,

19 on the top of the DA's list?

20 MR. DIAMOND: Just for

21 clarification, after the Boulder Police

22 Department cleared him?

23 MR. WOOD: Yeah.

24 A. No, I don't know that time line.

25 Certainly the DA investigators would but there

117

1 was a period in here where there -- this was

2 not a hand-in- glove fit and there was not a

3 lot of communication being shared.

4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Timing aside, we

5 can get clear agreement that Chris Wolf was

6 from your knowledge not only a suspect for

7 the Boulder Police Department, but at the top

8 of the list, along with McReynolds and Fleet

9 White, of the suspect list of the Boulder

10 district attorney's office in its

11 investigation, true?

12 A. Certainly seemed to be.

13 Q. And that was your understanding

14 and knowledge, right?

15 A. That they were still interested in

16 those parties, yes.

17 Q. That Mr. Wolf was on the top of

18 their suspect list, along with McReynolds and

19 Fleet White?

20 A. That was my impression.

21 Q. And knowledge, I mean not just

22 impression, you knew that as being a fact,

23 didn't you?

24 A. Yeah, they were still investigating

25 those three individuals.

118

1 Q. Now, what was Don Foster's -- did

2 he give a written report to you on Chris

3 Wolf's handwriting?

4 A. He may have. That would be in

5 the Boulder Police Department.

6 Q. Did you -- do you recall ever

7 reviewing it?

8 A. I may or may not have. I know

9 that we took him handwriting of several

10 potential suspects. But no, as I sit here

11 today, I don't recollect Mr. Foster or

12 Dr. Foster's written report on Chris Wolf.

13 Q. Did Don Foster examine hundreds of

14 writing examples from people ranging from

15 family members to Internet addicts, from

16 neighbors to Chris Wolf to the McReynolds

17 family and a library of books, films and

18 videotapes?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know what he concluded with

21 respect to each of the individuals that he

22 analyzed?

23 A. Yeah, that they were not the

24 author of the ransom note.

25 Q. He eliminated everybody, Don Foster

119

1 did, didn't he?

2 A. But one, yes.

3 Q. Right. In fact Don Foster told

4 you that of all of the hundreds of people of

5 the samples that he had looked at that he

6 had conclusively eliminated everybody and that

7 it was impossible for anyone to have written

8 that note other than Patsy Ramsey; that's

9 what Don Foster told you, right?

10 A. Those are your words, not his, but

11 I --

12 Q. Excuse me.

13 A. If I could finish.

14 Q. Yeah, you sure can.

15 A. He stated unequivocally that she

16 was the author of the ransom note.

17 Q. Do you, again, I'm sorry if I

18 didn't hear you or understand you earlier,

19 you don't know whether any search warrant was

20 ever issued with respect to Chris Wolf, do

21 you, firsthand knowledge or you have none and

22 hearsay otherwise you have not heard of any

23 search warrant?

24 A. I know Steve Ainsworth was out

25 there, I believe. And there was some

120

1 discussion regarding that, but I don't know

2 if he was out there by way of a search

3 warrant or not, I would doubt it.

4 Q. Do you know what was done with

5 the pillow case that Jackie Dilson brought to

6 the Boulder Police Department when you first

7 met with her?

8 A. Actually, she didn't come to the

9 Boulder Police Department. We met her at a

10 third-party location.

11 Q. Where was that?

12 A. The office of her attorney.

13 Q. Did you all ever ask her to

14 submit to any type of mental health

15 examination?

16 A. Jackie Dilson?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Not that I'm aware of.

19 Q. What was your basis for concluding

20 that she was mentally instable -- unstable?

21 A. Ten or 11 years of police work in

22 dealing with thousands of people, but beyond

23 that I think the transcript of that exchange

24 and some of what I have earlier mentioned

25 about Third World conspiracies led me to that

121

1 conclusion.

2 Q. Do you have any formal training in

3 psychology?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you have any formal training in

6 psychiatry?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you have any license to conduct

9 mental health examinations?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You told me that you all met at a

12 third party's office but you didn't tell me

13 what I wanted to know and, that is, do you

14 know what was done with the pillow case that

15 Jackie Dilson presented to the Boulder police

16 when you first met with her?

17 A. If my recollection is accurate, I

18 believe Detective Gosage took custody and

19 maintained that chain on that piece of

20 aforementioned rope. But I do not know

21 whether or not he took the pillow case.

22 Q. And you don't know firsthand or

23 secondhand, hearsay or otherwise if any

24 testing was ever done on the pillow case,

25 forensic testing; is that right?

122

1 A. When you mentioned hearsay or

2 third hand, again, it was my understanding

3 that she delivered to the Boulder County

4 district attorney's office and their

5 investigators a number of items subsequent to

6 our meeting.

7 Q. I want to go back. I told you I

8 would do it, let's do it now. Look at page

9 281 of your book, please, the hardback copy.

10 The top of the page, the first actually it

11 starts with "Don Foster from Vassar." Do you

12 see it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The first paragraph there under

15 that starts "'In my opinion, it is not

16 possible that any individual except Patsy

17 Ramsey wrote the ransom note.'" Have I read

18 that correctly?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Earlier we were talking about

21 whose words. Don Foster stated that it was

22 impossible for anyone else to have written

23 the note except Patsy Ramsey, true?

24 A. This is his statement, yes, sir.

25 Q. It was not -- and so I was

123

1 accurate earlier, that he said to you it's

2 impossible that anyone else wrote it?

3 A. Well, when I asked about your

4 earlier quotation, I don't think you said

5 this verbatim. But --

6 Q. Fine. But he did tell you it was

7 impossible, didn't he, it was not possible,

8 which is saying to you as a detective, it's

9 impossible that anyone else wrote it according

10 to Don Foster, right?

11 A. Yes, that was the conclusion that

12 he shared with me, Mr. Wood.

13 Q. But when you worked with him, and

14 you worked with him a lot, didn't you? You

15 all spent a considerable amount of time

16 discussing this case, didn't you, you and Don

17 Foster?

18 A. When you say considerable amount

19 of time, you know, no, I didn't spend weeks

20 or days with Don Foster, but he was an

21 outside expert that we used in this case,

22 yes.

23 Q. At any time did Don Foster,

24 himself, ever disclose to you that he had

25 written a letter to Patsy Ramsey?

124

1 A. Yeah, I became aware of that at

2 some point.

3 Q. After the district attorney's

4 office presented you with the information

5 about Jamison, true?

6 A. I believe that's correct.

7 Q. Did Don Foster when you were

8 working with him for whatever period of time

9 you spent with him, when he was giving you

10 his conclusions about the JonBenet Ramsey case

11 and the impossibility that anybody else wrote

12 that note except Patsy Ramsey, did he ever

13 look at you and say, you know, you probably

14 ought to know, though, that I did write a

15 letter to Patsy Ramsey where I told her that

16 I was convinced that she was innocent? He

17 never told you that, did he?

18 A. We had that conversation at some

19 point.

20 Q. After he had already been outed by

21 the Boulder DA, true?

22 A. Possibly.

23 Q. Do you think you had it before

24 then and didn't disclose it to your police

25 department in the presentation?

125

1 A. No, that sounds reasonable.

2 Q. You would have if you would have

3 known it, you would have told the police

4 department about that in the June

5 presentation, wouldn't you, sir?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. Well, actually the presentation

8 with Foster was in March, wasn't it?

9 A. If we're talking about 1998.

10 Q. We are.

11 A. It was the spring of 1998.

12 Q. Right. Now, your materials, just

13 so that I have got this down, how many boxes

14 were these police records and file copies of

15 reports and things, both the ones you copied

16 and the ones anonymously sent to you from,

17 you believe, from someone in the Boulder

18 Police Department, right?

19 A. Logic would conclude that.

20 Q. Yeah, and that was your

21 conclusion?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And, you know, how many boxes did

24 you store those materials in?

25 A. One cardboard box.

126

1 Q. Size?

2 A. A file-size cardboard box, a

3 banker's box.

4 Q. How was it marked?

5 A. Unmarked.

6 Q. What color was it?

7 A. White.

8 Q. Did you have a concern? I mean,

9 you've been in law enforcement for a number

10 of years. You've got an ongoing

11 investigation. Did you take any particular

12 precautions to maintain the integrity of those

13 documents?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you give them to Don Davis?

16 A. Don Davis doesn't have -- no, he

17 doesn't have that box or any of those

18 records.

19 Q. Did he look at them?

20 A. Are you talking about the

21 preparation of the book?

22 Q. I'm talking about the reports.

23 Did Don Davis ever see the reports --

24 A. He may have.

25 Q. -- and the copies of the file

127

1 that you made?

2 A. He may have.

3 Q. Have you ever made any effort to

4 find them?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When did you learn that they were

7 lost?

8 MR. DIAMOND: He didn't say ever

9 they were lost.

10 MR. WOOD: I'm sorry?

11 MR. DIAMOND: He never testified

12 that they were lost.

13 MR. WOOD: Misplaced or lost.

14 Can we agree one of the two things occurred?

15 I always kind of figured lost means

16 misplaced, too. When you've lost something,

17 you've lost it. It doesn't imply

18 intentionally. Although, one might draw their

19 own conclusion.

20 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) The point is when

21 did you -- if you -- you've made no effort

22 to look for them. When did you first learn

23 that the file box was either lost or

24 misplaced and couldn't be found?

25 A. The last time I recall looking in

128

1 that box was at some point in the weeks

2 prior to the book coming out.

3 Q. I'm not asking you the last time

4 you looked at it. I'm asking you when you

5 first learned that you couldn't find it. You

6 came here today under oath and told me --

7 A. I haven't been looking for it,

8 Mr. Wood.

9 Q. Because you've told me under oath,

10 sir, that you can't find it, haven't you?

11 MR. DIAMOND: I don't think he

12 has. I don't think he's ever testified to

13 that. Why don't you ask him that.

14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Didn't you tell me

15 where -- do you know where it is?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Have you made any effort to look

18 for it in recent months?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You didn't think that, you know,

21 Lin Wood is going to examine me on the

22 Ramsey investigation, I ought to try to read

23 over some of my reports and remember some

24 things so I'm up to speed; you didn't ever

25 have that thought as you came into this

129

1 deposition?

2 A. No, I'm here to answer your

3 questions today.

4 Q. But why would you not want to

5 refresh your recollection about the

6 investigation when you know I'm going to be

7 asking you about it and you knew that?

8 A. I did. As I told you earlier, I

9 reread my book.

10 Q. But your -- all these reports and

11 all these copies of police reports, there is

12 a lot more information there than what is in

13 your book, isn't there, sir?

14 A. There may be, yeah. The book is

15 not a police report, it's a narrative.

16 Q. No, then it's not complete. It

17 certainly is not as complete as the hundreds

18 of pages of police files, reports and copies

19 of reports that you have had at least at

20 some point in time in your possession, is it?

21 A. It's not a reproduction of the

22 30,000 plus page case file, no. That's

23 ridiculous. No.

24 Q. It's not a reproduction of the

25 hundreds of pages that you had in your

130

1 possession, is my question, is it, sir?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I mean, if we want to find out

4 what information you know about this

5 investigation from the police reports, we

6 can't get an answer to that from reading the

7 book. We would have to look at all the

8 files and the reports that you had, wouldn't

9 we?

10 A. I'm here to answer your questions

11 today.

12 Q. Answer that one for me. If I

13 want to try to find out what information you

14 had known or what you knew about this

15 investigation from all these hundreds of

16 police reports that you copied or that were

17 sent to you, I can't get that answer from

18 your book. I can only get that answer if I

19 can look at those files and reports, true?

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. Is that true?

22 A. Sure.

23 Q. Do you know Jeff Shapiro?

24 A. I did, so I guess in present

25 tense I do if I knew him at one time.

131

1 Q. Do you know of Mr. Shapiro's

2 documentation of telephone conversations by

3 taping them?

4 A. In a particular context I do.

5 Q. Do you have any knowledge,

6 recollection of telephone conversations between

7 you and Jeff Shapiro when you were in

8 Quantico, Virginia preparing to meet with the

9 FBI? Did you talk with Mr. Shapiro during

10 that time period?

11 A. I did.

12 Q. Do you have any notes about those

13 conversations?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Do you have any recollection of

16 the substance of those conversations?

17 A. Vaguely.

18 Q. You did, in fact, provide

19 information to Ann Bardach at Vanity Fair

20 about the JonBenet Ramsey investigation,

21 didn't you, sir?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. You also provided information about

24 the JonBenet Ramsey investigation to Carol

25 McKinley, didn't you, sir?

132

1 A. We discussed the politics of the

2 investigation. I consider Carol a friend

3 now.

4 Q. While you were still on the force

5 active in the investigation, you provided

6 information about it to Ann Bardach at Vanity

7 Fair, you discussed it with Carol McKinley

8 and you also provided it to the supermarket

9 tabloid The Globe through Jeff Shapiro, true?

10 A. No, I disagree with your

11 characterization of whatever you're trying to

12 say about Shapiro. I wasn't supplying him

13 with information about --

14 Q. You didn't --

15 A. -- the case.

16 Q. You didn't tell Jeff Shapiro to

17 come get in a tree at the Ramsey house

18 because you were all going over there and

19 sleep there one night?

20 A. I think the tree was his own

21 doing but I did mention to him that we were

22 going to be at the Ramsey house, yes.

23 Q. Well, we'll go into Mr. Shapiro

24 and that a little bit later.

25 MR. WOOD: Darnay?

133

1 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

2 MR. WOOD: Give me two seconds.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Should I start?

4 MR. DIAMOND: In two seconds.

5 MR. WOOD: Darnay?

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.

7 MR. WOOD: I'm going to turn it

8 over to you and you have at it.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much,

10 Mr. Wood.

11 MR. WOOD: Where are we on time

12 so that I know what I did? I might have

13 gone over five minutes longer than I meant

14 to.

15 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Total?

16 MR. WOOD: Total time of

17 testimony.

18 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Two hours and

19 ten minutes.

20 MR. WOOD: Two hours and ten

21 minutes. Thank you.

22 EXAMINATION

23 BY-MR.HOFFMAN:

24 Q. Hello, Mr. Thomas.

25 A. Hello, Mr. Hoffman. How are you?

134

1 Q. Fine. How are you?

2 A. Fine. Thank you.

3 Q. Can you hear me all right?

4 A. I can.

5 Q. All right. Mr. Thomas, you have

6 a copy of your hardcover book with you, don't

7 you?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. All right. Could you just turn

10 to page 14 of your book?

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. Yes, do you see the first full

13 paragraph on page 14 that begins "The

14 district attorney"?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Could you just read the first

17 sentence out loud, please?

18 A. Certainly. "The district attorney

19 and his top prosecutor, two police chiefs and

20 a large number of cops, although so at odds

21 on some points that they almost came to

22 blows, all agreed on one thing - that

23 probable cause existed to arrest Patsy Ramsey

24 in connection with the death of her

25 daughter."

135

1 Q. Is that an accurate statement?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Now, I would like to ask you some

4 questions with respect to that statement. To

5 begin with, if you wouldn't mind, regarding

6 one of the two police chiefs, could you turn

7 to page 299 of your book?

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Yes. The second paragraph on 299

10 begins "Even after DeMuth's recital of our

11 shortcomings," could you just read those two

12 sentences?

13 A. "Even after DeMuth's recital of

14 our shortcomings I felt we held a decent

15 hand. Commander Beckner told me later that

16 he thought we had gone far beyond showing

17 probable cause."

18 Q. Would you read the next sentence?

19 A. Certainly. "'I think she (Patty

20 Ramsey) did it,' he said. 'We should just

21 charge them both with felony murder and

22 aiding and abetting'".

23 Q. Is that an accurate statement of

24 what you heard?

25 A. Yes, it is.

136

1 Q. Did Mr. -- actually Commander

2 Beckner tell you that personally?

3 A. On more than one occasion.

4 Q. Could you please explain or

5 elaborate a little further on each occasion

6 how that statement came about?

7 A. Certainly. Inside the police

8 department situation room that housed this

9 Ramsey investigation, there were probably a

10 handful of occasions on which or in which

11 Mark Beckner made statements like that or

12 similar to that indicating that we had

13 sufficient facts and circumstances rising to a

14 level of probable cause for an arrest of

15 Patsy Ramsey.

16 Q. Do you know approximately how many

17 times -- on how many occasions he made that

18 statement?

19 MR. WOOD: Wait, let me ask you a

20 question if I could, Darnay, for

21 clarification. Are you asking him for -- I'm

22 sorry, I have to get my mike on. Are you

23 asking him for the statement that Patsy

24 Ramsey was a killer or for the statement that

25 there was probable cause for an arrest, which

137

1 is --

2 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm asking for the

3 statement that is actually in the book which

4 is that there is probable cause for an

5 arrest.

6 MR. WOOD: Okay. All right.

7 That's what I wanted to clarify. Thank you.

8 A. Mr. Hoffman, could you repeat your

9 question to me?

10 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) I'm sorry, can

11 you tell me approximately how many, the

12 number, how many times or how many occasions

13 he made that statement?

14 A. As I may have mentioned, a handful

15 that I overheard. There was no disputing

16 that among the detective team. He may have

17 said that outside of my presence. In fact,

18 I think he -- I think he did in relation to

19 what we're talking about.

20 Q. But within your own presence, how

21 many times do you think approximately he said

22 that?

23 MR. WOOD: Again, talking about

24 there is probable cause for an arrest?

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Probable cause for

138

1 an arrest, that statement.

2 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

3 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) The gist of

4 that statement that there was probable cause

5 for an arrest?

6 A. A half a dozen times.

7 Q. Half a dozen times. Did on any

8 of those occasions, did he explain why he

9 felt there was probable cause for an arrest?

10 A. Mr. Hoffman, at that time I think

11 he was sufficiently familiar with the facts

12 of the investigation to make that conclusion

13 on his own as did, as you previously

14 mentioned, the other detectives in the case.

15 Q. All right. Do you know if the

16 prior commander, Commander John Eller, ever

17 commented on who he thought may have in fact

18 either written the ransom note or committed

19 the crime of murdering JonBenet Ramsey?

20 MR. WOOD: Do you want him to

21 answer two questions? Why don't you ask him

22 one at a time.

23 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Was

24 there ever an occasion when John Eller

25 expressed an opinion as to whether or not

139

1 there was probable cause to arrest someone

2 for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

3 A. Yeah. And, Mr. Hoffman, if you

4 can direct me back to the first page you

5 asked about.

6 MR. DIAMOND: Fourteen.

7 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Page 14.

8 A. Yeah. Eller was one of those

9 commanders that I think I -- I'm sorry, I

10 didn't define it as a commander but Eller was

11 certainly one of the large number of cops, as

12 noted on page 14.

13 Q. You said there are two police

14 chiefs. Now, I believe that Commander

15 Beckner replaced Commander Koby; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Commander Beckner did indeed

18 replace Chief Koby.

19 Q. All right. Now, was Chief Koby

20 one of the police chiefs you're referring to?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did Chief Koby ever express an

23 opinion as to whether or not probable cause

24 existed for someone to be arrested for the

25 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

140

1 A. He did; he's one of the two

2 police chiefs I'm referring to in this

3 paragraph.

4 Q. Do you know the substance of his

5 statement; did he ever make a statement like

6 that in your presence?

7 A. He may have but it was certainly

8 relayed down through the chain of command

9 through Wickman to the rest of us that Koby

10 concurred and Koby may have very well told me

11 that himself as well.

12 Q. But you presently don't have any

13 memory of him saying it to you personally; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Koby?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Koby was present in briefings when

18 probable cause was discussed and Koby was in

19 total agreement. So, yeah, I do have a

20 recollection of Koby being present and

21 agreeing with that concept.

22 Q. Did commander or Chief Koby ever

23 indicate who it was that he believed there

24 was sufficient probable cause to arrest for

25 the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

141

1 A. Yes, the discussion was concerning

2 Patricia Ramsey.

3 Q. And did he express a belief that

4 Patricia Ramsey should be arrested for the

5 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

6 A. I don't know if Koby ever went so

7 far as allowing for an arrest to be made but

8 certainly concurring on probable cause.

9 Q. Actually what I'm trying to

10 determine is whether or not he ever actually

11 expressed the belief that Patsy Ramsey should

12 be arrested based on probable cause for the

13 murder of her daughter?

14 A. My distinction would be not should

15 be but could be. Koby was not entirely an

16 over-aggressive individual that was willing to

17 take that next step.

18 Q. But Commander Koby, based on the

19 evidence that you believe existed in the

20 case, felt that there was sufficient basis by

21 which Patsy Ramsey could be arrested for the

22 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, you

25 also -- I also asked about John Eller, who I

142

1 know is technically not a police chief, he

2 was in charge of the investigation. Did John

3 Eller ever express a belief or an opinion

4 that probable cause existed for the arrest of

5 someone for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell me who that person

8 was that he thought should or could be

9 arrested -- actually I am going to rephrase

10 that. Withdraw the question.

11 Did he ever name an individual

12 that he thought could be arrested for

13 probable cause in the murder of JonBenet

14 Ramsey?

15 A. Patricia Ramsey.

16 Q. Did he ever express that to you

17 personally?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On more than one occasion?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did he ever discuss why he thought

22 probable cause existed for the arrest of

23 Patricia Ramsey for the murder of JonBenet

24 Ramsey?

25 A. My belief that he, too, was

143

1 sufficiently familiar with the facts and

2 circumstances that were sufficient to meet a

3 threshold of probable cause and said that on

4 occasion in the detective briefings that

5 spring of '97.

6 Q. Now, with respect to the district

7 attorney, again I'm referring you back to

8 page 14, you begin by saying "The district

9 attorney and his top prosecutor." Who was

10 the top prosecutor you were referring to?

11 A. Pete Hofstrom.

12 Q. Is it your testimony that Pete

13 Hofstrom believed that probable cause existed

14 for an arrest?

15 A. Yeah, absolutely. He conceded

16 that there was probable cause but there were

17 some sticking points beyond that. But as to

18 the issue of probable cause, yeah, that was

19 his express conversation with me that we had

20 met that burden.

21 Q. So you actually had a conversation

22 with Pete Hofstrom with respect to the issue

23 of whether probable cause existed?

24 A. Several times.

25 Q. And did he identify the person who

144

1 he thought could be arrested for probable

2 cause for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

3 A. We were talking about it in

4 connection with Patricia Ramsey. So I'm

5 assuming he was -- it was just a two-person

6 conversation at times. So yes.

7 Q. Do you know whether or not the

8 district attorney, Alex Hunter, ever expressed

9 an opinion as to whether or not probable

10 cause existed for the arrest of someone in

11 the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

12 A. I'm told he did.

13 Q. So you, in fact, never heard Alex

14 Hunter express an opinion with respect to

15 that?

16 A. Only through, for example, Mark

17 Beckner and Tom Wickman.

18 Q. Exactly what did Mark Beckner say

19 with respect to his understanding of what

20 Alex Hunter said regarding the issue of

21 probable cause?

22 A. Very simply relaying to the

23 detective team that Hunter was aware and knew

24 and conceded that fact.

25 Q. Conceded what fact?

145

1 A. The fact that probable cause

2 existed for an arrest in this case.

3 Q. Did -- do you know if Alex Hunter

4 ever identified the person as being the

5 person for which sufficient probable cause

6 existed for an arrest in the murder of

7 JonBenet Ramsey?

8 A. In the context of which it was

9 being presented that's what we were talking

10 about was the possible arrest of Patsy

11 Ramsey.

12 Q. I would like you to look at page

13 327 of your book, if you don't mind, please.

14 And I refer you, when you found that page,

15 to the very last paragraph at the end of the

16 page, beginning "Alex Hunter." If you would

17 just read that sentence, that one sentence.

18 A. "Alex Hunter said he thought Patsy

19 Ramsey was involved."

20 Q. Okay. Did he actually -- did you

21 actually hear him say that?

22 MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay?

23 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry, yes?

24 MR. WOOD: Can I ask you to put

25 that sentence in context by having him

146

1 complete the reading of the next couple

2 sentences.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, I'm sorry.

4 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Yes, would you,

5 please, just --

6 MR. HOFFMAN: How many more

7 sentences do you want him to read, Lin?

8 MR. WOOD: Just the next one.

9 The next two.

10 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right.

11 Read the next one, please, Mr. Thomas.

12 MR. WOOD: Start from "Alex

13 Hunter" and read down, if you would, through

14 "demeanor."

15 A. "Alex Hunter said that he thought

16 Patsy Ramsey was involved. That was more

17 than offset by comments from his staff."

18 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right.

19 Were you present when Alex Hunter said that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were. So you actually had an

22 occasion to hear Alex Hunter express a belief

23 with respect to Patsy Ramsey's involvement in

24 the case?

25 A. Yes.

147

1 Q. Do you know when that event was,

2 when this statement was made?

3 A. May I look at the book for a

4 moment and maybe it will --

5 Q. I have no problem with that.

6 A. Okay.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: I would just like

8 the record to reflect that Mr. Thomas is, in

9 fact, refreshing his memory with respect to

10 my question by looking at the book.

11 MR. WOOD: If I can help, it

12 looks to me in context that would have been

13 on one of the evenings in June of 1998

14 following the interrogations. I don't know

15 if Mr. Thomas agrees with that or not.

16 MR. DIAMOND: Who is testifying

17 here?

18 MR. WOOD: I was trying to move

19 it along. I would be glad to testify if you

20 want to examine me on another occasion,

21 Mr. Diamond.

22 MR. DIAMOND: All right.

23 A. Mr. Hoffman, this was June of

24 1998.

25 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) June of 1998.

148

1 So you were actually present and heard him

2 make a statement to that effect; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, do you have any knowledge as

6 to whether or not the FBI ever had an

7 opinion with respect to whether probable cause

8 existed for the arrest of someone for the

9 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

10 A. It was my impression and they were

11 very professional in our dealings with them,

12 but I don't think they ever countered or

13 challenged the fact that the police department

14 had this sufficient probable cause.

15 Q. Do you know whether or not the

16 FBI actually saw the evidence that the police

17 had with respect to whether or not there was

18 probable cause to charge someone for the

19 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

20 A. Well, certainly a lot of the facts

21 and the evidence, the factual evidence, from

22 this case was shared with members of the FBI.

23 Q. Did you ever have occasion to

24 speak with any of the members of the FBI

25 that were looking at the evidence?

149

1 A. Yeah, on several occasions. And

2 again, I think they always tempered comments

3 and were most professional. But, again, I,

4 Mr. Hoffman, don't have that specific

5 recollection of an exchange but it was always

6 my impression that they supported us fully on

7 that.

8 Q. Do you know whether or not the

9 FBI had occasion to examine the ransom note

10 and handwriting exemplars of either John or

11 Patsy Ramsey?

12 A. I don't know whether or not the

13 FBI conducted any examinations of handwriting

14 exemplars, but they certainly reviewed and

15 studied and discussed with us the ransom note

16 itself.

17 Q. Did they offer any insight or any

18 analysis of the ransom note?

19 A. They did.

20 Q. Do you remember what that analysis

21 consisted of?

22 A. We had a meeting in Quantico,

23 Virginia and I'm trying to recollect the

24 date. It doesn't come to me right now. But

25 nonetheless, the ransom note was dissected and

150

1 profiled and so forth. And certainly I would

2 suggest that you ask any of them. But it's

3 my recollection of that meeting, of which

4 reports were written and, you know, there is

5 a lot of information about what went on in

6 those meetings, but how patently bogus and

7 crafted and stilted and just non authentic

8 this ransom note was.

9 Q. I would like you to turn, if you

10 will, please, to page 312 of your book.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. And I would like you to look at

13 what looks like to be the third sentence.

14 It begins "'What's going on in that DA's

15 office.'" If you would read that paragraph

16 -- to the end of that paragraph and then

17 read the next paragraph.

18 A. Okay. "'What's going on in that

19 DA's office is a disgrace' one of the FBI

20 agents observed during our last supper. This

21 case has become an embarrassment to law

22 enforcement. We were all in agreement. 'It

23 is terribly discouraging how the DA is

24 handling this,' said one Dream Team attorney,

25 'Hunter is going to outsmart himself on this

151

1 one.'"

2 Q. Did you actually hear that

3 statement made.

4 A. Which statement is that?

5 Q. The quote from the FBI agent,

6 what's going on is a disgrace?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Just everything that you read

9 there you have in quotations --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- were you actually present at

12 that?

13 A. I was.

14 Q. Yes. And is that an accurate

15 recollection of what was said?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know what they were

18 referring to when they said that what was

19 going on in the DA's office is a disgrace?

20 A. They were certainly familiar with

21 a lot of the history and the animosity and,

22 you know, the ugly politics involved in this

23 thing and I don't know to what disgrace

24 they're specifically referring to but I think

25 it can cover a number of things.

152

1 Q. Do you know what they were

2 referring to when they say, quote, Hunter is

3 going to outsmart himself on this one,

4 unquote?

5 MR. DIAMOND: That was a Dream

6 Team attorney, not the FBI.

7 MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay, why --

8 MR. HOFFMAN: You're right, that's

9 correct, okay, I'm sorry.

10 MR. WOOD: Darnay, would it be --

11 MR. HOFFMAN: I admit that and

12 I'm just going to double back a little bit.

13 Lin, what were you going to say?

14 MR. WOOD: I was going to say

15 maybe it would be helpful to figure out which

16 is which if we -- if you want to ask him

17 who the FBI agent was and who the Dream Team

18 attorney was.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, Lin, I was

20 about to get to that.

21 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) In fact why

22 don't I just do that, ask you who the FBI

23 agent was, if you remember?

24 A. There were at least three agents

25 at that dinner and it may have been Mike

153

1 Morrow.

2 Q. Do you know what, is it Mike

3 Morrow?

4 A. Um-hum.

5 Q. What his function was with the

6 FBI? I mean what exactly was his involvement

7 in the case?

8 A. He was or is a special agent with

9 the Federal Bureau based out of, I think

10 they're based out of Quantico or that

11 Virginia-DC area and he was assigned to that

12 child abduction and serial killer unit.

13 Q. Did he ever express an opinion as

14 to who he thought committed this crime?

15 A. Again, I think they were very

16 diplomatic in their response, but I don't

17 recall that specific conversation with

18 Mr. Morrow. But it certainly wouldn't

19 surprise me for him to say he was consistent

20 with everyone else.

21 Q. Okay. So but you have no

22 personal knowledge of that?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. Okay. Now, to the second

25 paragraph and, please, excuse me, I'm sorry

154

1 for having you read that in a way that could

2 confuse people. That second paragraph says

3 "'It is terribly discouraging how the D A is

4 handling this,' said one Dream Team attorney.

5 Hunter is going to outsmart himself on this

6 one.'" Who was the Dream Team attorney who

7 made that statement, if you remember?

8 A. I believe that was Bob Miller.

9 Q. Was Bob Miller at this meeting

10 where the prior statement by the FBI agent

11 was made which we have just referred to?

12 A. There were several people in this

13 restaurant this particular evening. So I

14 don't know whether or not he heard, overheard

15 that conversation.

16 Q. Right. So his statement then may

17 not have been in reaction to the FBI

18 statement; is that correct?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. And do you know what he meant

21 when he said that Hunter is going to outsmart

22 himself on this one?

23 A. No. I think there are a number

24 of ways to interpret it but it sort of

25 stands alone in my mind.

155

1 Q. Mr. Thomas, would you mind,

2 please, turning to page 302 of your book.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Do you have it in front of you?

5 A. Yes, I'm sorry, yes.

6 Q. Fine. Would you look at the

7 third paragraph from the top, which begins

8 "Two days before we were to go onstage."

9 And would you read that whole paragraph,

10 please.

11 A. Certainly. "Two days before we

12 were to go onstage, we got some surprising

13 big news when the Colorado Bureau of

14 Investigation lab told us that the acrylic

15 fibers found on the duct tape that covered

16 JonBenet's mouth were a quote, likely match,

17 for Patsy's blazer. We were ready."

18 Q. You've been asked earlier with

19 respect to the forensic, you know, not

20 importance, but the forensic views that the

21 ransom note was being made for. Did this

22 become an important piece of forensic evidence

23 in the case?

24 MR. WOOD: You're talking about

25 the ransom note now or the likely match of

156

1 four fibers?

2 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry, thank

3 you, Lin.

4 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Did the fibers

5 that were found on the duct tape that were

6 covering JonBenet's mouth that were, quote, a

7 likely match for Patsy's blazer, did that

8 become an important piece of forensic evidence

9 in the investigation?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Do you know when or at what point

12 in the case the CBI made that report?

13 A. I think it was sometime before we

14 were told -- I think that information may

15 have been held by Wickman and Trujillo and

16 Beckner possibly.

17 Q. Do you know whether or not that

18 information was actually part of anyone's

19 presentation before the district attorney that

20 was made prior to the convening of a grand

21 jury when you turned the case over to the

22 district attorney?

23 A. Mr. Hoffman, are you asking me --

24 I'm sorry, that's not clear to me.

25 Q. All right. That CBI report, did

157

1 you receive it before you made your formal

2 presentation to the district attorney's

3 office? That's a presentation that was made

4 prior to the convening of the grand jury. I

5 believe it was in May or June of 1998 when

6 you formally turned over the case to the

7 district attorney. I may have that date

8 wrong.

9 MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay, I'm just

10 a little unclear if you don't mind.

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. WOOD: There were two

13 presentations, one was made by Trip DeMuth I

14 believe in May and then there was what we

15 call a VIP presentation that was made of a

16 lot of people other than the DA's office in

17 June. Those are the two presentations. I'm

18 not sure which one you are referring to.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, thank you.

20 It is confusing, there is no question about

21 it.

22 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) The presentation

23 that most people, and myself included, think

24 of is that large presentation where you stood

25 up and you gave evidence yourself. That's

158

1 the one where you refer to Alex Hunter is

2 talking on a cell phone and it sort of -- it

3 seems at the end of that you decided that

4 you had had enough of the case and you were

5 going to move on. That's the presentation

6 I'm talking about.

7 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm assuming -- is

8 that the VIP presentation, Lin?

9 MR. WOOD: I don't know. I mean,

10 Steve Thomas would have to figure out whether

11 that's an accurate statement about whether he

12 heard, saw, or thought or felt. I'm not

13 sure.

14 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Well, you know

15 what, I'm just confusing the issue. I'm

16 going to drop that line of questioning and

17 just ask you, did you have occasion to

18 actually see the CBI report that indicated

19 that there was a likely match for Patsy's

20 blazer with the acrylic fiber found on the

21 duct tape?

22 A. Not that I recall. Detective

23 Trujillo, who was in charge of all the

24 evidence and forensic testing in this case,

25 he and Wickman verbally offered that to the

159

1 rest of the detective team.

2 Q. All right. So you never

3 personally saw a report with that result or

4 that conclusion?

5 A. I'm relying on a fellow officer.

6 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not

7 there was ever any evidence that you saw or

8 you heard about in the course of the

9 investigation while you were still with the

10 Boulder police force showing whether or not

11 any fibers from either Patsy's clothing or

12 from her boots or from any part of her was

13 found in JonBenet's panties?

14 MR. WOOD: That's about three or

15 four questions, Darnay.

16 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Do you know

17 whether or not there was ever any evidence,

18 forensic evidence, showing that any article of

19 clothing could be matched to a substance

20 found in JonBenet's diaper or panties?

21 MR. WOOD: I have to just comment

22 that I don't believe there was any evidence

23 that JonBenet was wearing a diaper.

24 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right. To

25 her panties?

160

1 A. If I understand the question

2 correctly, and now just rephrase it so I'm

3 answering the right question or --

4 Q. Yeah, when JonBenet Ramsey was

5 found she was wearing I don't know what other

6 word there is for it but panties and there

7 was a question as to whether or not there

8 were substances found in that panty area.

9 What I'm asking you is do you know if there

10 was ever any forensic evidence indicating that

11 any article of clothing that Patsy wore was

12 found as a particle in that panty area of

13 JonBenet?

14 A. No, I am unaware of any forensic

15 or fiber evidence from Patsy Ramsey's clothing

16 to the victim's under clothing or underwear.

17 Q. Do you know if there was any

18 forensic evidence of Patsy Ramsey's clothing

19 at all besides the duct tape area on

20 JonBenet?

21 A. As we sit here now, no, I don't

22 recollect any other fiber evidence, other than

23 what we have discussed linking the mother to

24 JonBenet.

25 Q. With respect to what you have

161

1 referred to as a master affidavit, could you

2 please describe what a master affidavit is?

3 A. Certainly. At some point in, I

4 believe it was 1997, the police department

5 asked me to be the affiant on a master

6 affidavit and basically the case was reaching

7 a proportion that it needed to be condensed

8 into affidavit form in the event a search

9 and/or arrest warrant were necessary to carry

10 out on this case.

11 And given that assignment I tried

12 then over the course of the next several,

13 many months to keep that affidavit current.

14 Q. When you say keep the affidavit

15 current, how was the affidavit prepared or

16 being prepared?

17 A. It was being prepared as new

18 information became available that was relevant

19 to include inside this affidavit, that

20 information would be shared with me and I

21 would include that in the narrative.

22 Q. Now, when you say include that in

23 the narrative, were you preparing an ongoing

24 written narrative at the time?

25 A. Yes.

162

1 Q. And where did you keep a copy of

2 this ongoing written narrative?

3 A. Either in my briefcase or in my

4 desk inside the Boulder Police Department

5 situation room were typically the only two

6 places that the -- that the affidavit would

7 be left.

8 Q. Could you describe what form it

9 was being kept in? By example, was it kept

10 in a notebook? Was it kept on separate

11 sheets of paper? How was it kept physically?

12 A. Eight and a half by 11 white,

13 unbound paper, typically stapled with a

14 heavy-duty stapler in the upper left-hand

15 corner.

16 Q. And where were those pages being

17 kept physically, in a file folder? In a

18 book? What?

19 A. In my briefcase or my desk. But

20 if you're saying how were those stored?

21 Yeah, inside a manila-type folder.

22 Q. Was the folder labeled master

23 affidavit?

24 A. I don't recall.

25 Q. Was there any marking on the

163

1 folder as to what it was that was being

2 contained there?

3 A. No, but it's very apparent what it

4 is if you go looking for it.

5 Q. Do you know how long you kept

6 that master affidavit before it was

7 discontinued?

8 A. If memory serves, in the spring of

9 1998 when Beckner said that we weren't going

10 to make a physical custodial arrest and that

11 the case was headed for the DA's office and

12 possibly a grand jury, that was ceased.

13 Q. Did Mark Beckner or anyone else

14 tell you what you should do with the master

15 affidavit that you had in your possession?

16 A. Not that I recall. That would

17 have been -- no, not that I recall; I don't

18 recall any instruction like that. It would

19 have and likely and probably did just simply

20 wind up in the at the time 80-plus case file

21 notebooks in that room.

22 Q. So you turned the affidavit over

23 at some point to the police --

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. -- to the other people in the

164

1 police department?

2 A. Right, that's in -- that's inside

3 the police department.

4 Q. Okay. Do you know if you made a

5 copy of that for your own use?

6 A. I don't know that I did.

7 Q. Okay. Do you know how many pages

8 the master affidavit was when you were told

9 to discontinue making it?

10 A. Well, it was continually being

11 updated and drafted and pencil marked and

12 everything else but I would put it at the

13 time that I last saw it I don't know if

14 anybody ever continued it after I left the

15 police department, but 50, 60, 70, 80-plus

16 pages maybe.

17 Q. Do you know who made the decision

18 as to what to include in the master

19 affidavit?

20 A. Well, I did partly, as did Tom

21 Wickman, Mark Beckner. On occasion, you

22 know, we would run ideas and thoughts by the

23 in-house legal advisor, Bob Keatley. Kim

24 Stewart had it for a period of time and I

25 think she did some updating or amending or

165

1 suggesting to it. It was sort of a

2 continuing work in progress. And when a

3 detective in the room had information that

4 was relevant to the affidavit, it would

5 typically be included.

6 Q. Were you the only person that

7 physically included the information or did

8 other people have access to it?

9 A. Well, two questions. Did other

10 people have access to it. Yes. And was I

11 the only one that physically made inclusions

12 to it? Mr. Hoffman, do you mean by way of

13 typewriting?

14 Q. Yes, by way of actual handwritten

15 notations or typewritten?

16 A. Yes, that's my recollection.

17 Q. All right. So nobody that you

18 remember made any physical notations or

19 changes in the master affidavit beside

20 yourself?

21 A. No. I'm saying others did in the

22 room make physical changes to it, line

23 throughs, additions, deletions, et cetera, as

24 information, you know, became available or got

25 stale or whatever the case might be.

166

1 Q. Mr. Thomas, directing your

2 attention now to the handwriting reports from

3 the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, did you

4 ever have occasion to see any of the

5 handwriting reports that were done at all in

6 the case by CBI?

7 A. Yeah. What they called a report

8 typically was more of a lab finding. It

9 wasn't in a narrative form, as I recall, but

10 those were in the possession of Trujillo, the

11 forensic evidence detective, but I did have

12 at least one occasion to look at those.

13 Q. Can you describe what one

14 typically looked like? Like how many pages

15 was one of these reports?

16 A. Fairly short, if I recall. The

17 one that I have in mind probably ran less

18 than four pages. On the front page was like

19 a CBI logo or letterhead, whatever they

20 typically manufacture their printed report on

21 and just simply black typewritten or

22 computer-generated ink on white paper.

23 Q. Do you know what sort of analysis

24 was actually done in the report of the

25 handwriting?

167

1 A. Yeah, they -- I remember the

2 language concerning Patsy Ramsey, which was

3 included in that report. And then many other

4 people's or people whose handwriting had been

5 looked at were also reported in this

6 document.

7 Q. Now, you say this document.

8 Weren't there more than -- did they do

9 separate reports for each individual's

10 handwriting that they examined, to the best

11 of your knowledge?

12 A. Not that I saw.

13 Q. So basically what was it that you

14 saw, a single report?

15 A. Well, as I described this report

16 probably less than four pages in length that

17 was very compacted with a lot of information

18 and not typically what you think of as a --

19 or what I think of as a police report with a

20 narrative, but more exhibit number such and

21 such corresponding to this, et cetera. Not

22 -- it wasn't free-flowing narrative of any

23 sort.

24 Q. The report that you actually were

25 able to physically examine, do you know how

168

1 many subjects or persons were actually being

2 discussed in that report?

3 A. Yeah, many. Many, many, many, you

4 know, 20, 30, 40 maybe.

5 Q. Do you know whether or not the

6 report drew any conclusions with respect to

7 the authorship of the ransom note?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell me what you

10 remember the conclusion to be?

11 A. As I sit here today without that

12 document in front of me, I recall language in

13 that document that along the lines, and I'm

14 certainly paraphrasing, that there was

15 evidence to suggest that Patsy Ramsey was the

16 author of the ransom note.

17 Q. Is that the language that you

18 remember "evidence to suggest"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, with respect to your book,

21 you make a statement in your book, I'm trying

22 to find the page, but I'll just ask you

23 generally, yeah, it's on page 282, in the

24 next to the last paragraph on page 282, the

25 paragraph that begins "Not only did certain

169

1 letters change." Do you have that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you read that paragraph out

4 loud, please?

5 A. Certainly. "Not only did certain

6 letters change, but her entire writing style

7 seemed to have been transformed after the

8 homicide. There were new ways of indenting,

9 spelling, and writing out long numbers that

10 contrasted with her earlier examples, and she

11 was the only suspect who altered her usual

12 preferences when supplying writing samples to

13 the police."

14 Q. Now, the she in this paragraph,

15 who is the she?

16 A. This is referring to Patsy Ramsey.

17 Q. All right. Now, may I ask you

18 how you acquired the knowledge that you have

19 in this paragraph? How do you know that in

20 fact is what was going on in her handwriting?

21 MR. WOOD: Let me say something I

22 don't think that he stated that he knows that

23 as a fact I think he's describing what Don

24 Foster said, but I may be wrong.

25 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. I'm just

170

1 asking him how he acquired that information.

2 MR. WOOD: Okay.

3 A. Mr. Hoffman, surrounding or

4 preceding this paragraph it's in relation to

5 Mr. Foster's presentation in Boulder, if I'm

6 not mistaken and his presentation overheads,

7 examples, et cetera.

8 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right. Do

9 you know if anyone other than Don Foster

10 shared that belief who was involved in the

11 investigation?

12 A. What belief?

13 Q. The belief that there was an

14 attempt by Patsy Ramsey to alter her

15 handwriting when asked for exemplars?

16 MR. DIAMOND: Do you mean among

17 the expert community?

18 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Among anybody

19 that was investigating the case that you know

20 of?

21 A. I don't know if Don Foster shared

22 any of his findings or investigation with any

23 of the FBI people that he sometimes works

24 with, but as far as those people in the room

25 that day for this presentation in trying to

171

1 recall what Foster presented and said and

2 demonstrated, that was certainly where I came

3 away with this impression.

4 Q. Mr. Thomas, are you aware of the

5 fact that Patsy Ramsey was asked to give what

6 is known as request samplers to the police on

7 more than one occasion during the

8 investigation?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Do you know how many times she

11 was -- on how many different occasions she

12 was asked to give request samples of her

13 handwriting to the police?

14 A. If my understanding is correct, I

15 think it was five.

16 Q. Do you know why she was asked to

17 give five separate handwriting samples on five

18 separate occasions?

19 A. That was not my assignment, but

20 given what I knew through the briefings and

21 the detectives who were handling that

22 assignment I could speculate as to why it

23 became known to me.

24 Q. Did anybody through hearsay or any

25 other way communicate with you why they were

172

1 asking Patsy Ramsey to appear on more than

2 one occasion to give exemplars?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell me why?

5 A. Yes. Because apparently the CBI

6 examiner, analyst, expert, had questions or

7 concerns about her handwriting and

8 similarities with the note.

9 Q. Did anybody ever express the

10 belief that she was attempting to alter her

11 handwriting?

12 A. Yes, Don Foster.

13 Q. Any other person in the

14 investigation?

15 A. And, again, as I sit here, from

16 memory and without the QD examiner's reports

17 in front of me, Mr. Hoffman, let me think

18 for a moment. No, not that I can recall.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Since I'm drawing

20 near, how is my time doing, does anybody

21 know?

22 MR. RAWLS: You've got 17 more

23 minutes.

24 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Mr. Thomas, I

25 would just like to direct you to page 286 of

173

1 your book.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. All right. Now, this is a rather

4 lengthy series of paragraphs and it runs to

5 289 and it's basically from what I can

6 understand your theory of how this crime was

7 committed, who was involved in it; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And have you had a chance to

11 review pages 286, 87, 88 and 89 since the

12 book was written?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Are these statements still

15 accurate?

16 A. Well, I don't know the current

17 state of the evidence of what may or may not

18 have changed or come to be known by Mike

19 Kane and the cops. But at the time I left,

20 this was certainly a hypothesis that I felt

21 was consistent with the evidence that I felt

22 was certainly reasonable.

23 Q. Have you had any occasion to

24 change your mind with respect to your

25 analysis and the conclusions that you draw in

174

1 these pages?

2 A. Well, will you give me just a

3 moment to reread quickly these three pages?

4 MR. HOFFMAN: In fact, would

5 anyone object if he read this out loud into

6 the record?

7 MR. WOOD: If you want to spend

8 your time having him do that, Darnay, I have

9 no objection whatsoever.

10 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, yes, would you

11 mind? Let's do it this way. Why don't you

12 silently read this to yourself and then I'll

13 ask you that question again.

14 MR. WOOD: He might as well read

15 it out loud because it's on the clock.

16 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Then why

17 don't you read it out loud. Begin with

18 "There was no doubt in my mind that Patsy

19 wrote the note."

20 A. "'I believe she committed the

21 murder' I told Smit and proceeded to lay out

22 what I thought had happened ...

23 "In my hypothesis, and approaching

24 fortieth birthday, the busy holiday season, an

25 exhausting Christmas Day, and an argument with

175

1 JonBenet had left Patsy frazzled. Her

2 beautiful daughter, whom she frequently

3 dressed almost as a twin, had rebelled

4 against wearing the same outfit as her

5 mother.

6 "When they came home, John Ramsey

7 helped Burke put together a Christmas toy.

8 JonBenet, who had not eaten much at the

9 Whites' party, was hungry. Her mother let

10 her have some pineapple, and then the kids

11 were put to bed. John Ramsey read to his

12 little girl. Then he went to bed. Patsy

13 stayed up to prepare for the trip to Michigan

14 the next morning, a trip she admittedly did

15 not particularly want to make.

16 "Later JonBenet awakened after

17 wetting her bed, as indicated by the plastic

18 sheets, the urine stains, the pull-up diaper

19 package hanging halfway out of a cabinet, and

20 the balled-up turtleneck found in the

21 bathroom. I concluded that the little girl

22 had worn the red turtleneck to bed, as her

23 mother originally said, and that it was

24 stripped off when it got wet.

25 "As I told Smith, I never believed

176

1 the child was sexually abused for the

2 gratification of the offender but that the

3 vaginal trauma was some sort of corporal

4 punishment. The dark fibers found in her

5 pubic region could have come from the violent

6 wiping of a wet child. Patsy probably yanked

7 out the diaper package in cleaning up

8 JonBenet.

9 "Patsy would not be the first

10 mother to lose control in such a situation.

11 One of the doctors we consulted cited

12 toileting issues as a textbook example of

13 causing a parental rage. So, in my

14 hypothesis, there was some sort of explosive

15 encounter in the child's bathroom sometime

16 prior to one o'clock in the morning, the time

17 suggested by the digestion rate of the

18 pineapple found in the child's stomach. I

19 believed JonBenet was slammed against a hard

20 surface, such as the edge of a tub,

21 inflicting a mortal head wound. She was

22 unconscious, but her heart was still beating.

23 Patsy would not have known that JonBenet was

24 still alive, because the child already

25 appeared to be dead. The massive head trauma

177

1 would have eventually killed her.

2 "It was the critical moment in

3 which she either had to call for help or

4 find an alternative explanation for her

5 daughter's death. It was accidental in the

6 sense that the situation had developed without

7 motive or premeditation. She could have

8 called for help but chose not to. An

9 emergency room doctor probably would have

10 questioned the 'accident' and called the

11 police. Still, little would have happened to

12 Patsy in Boulder. But I believe panic

13 overtook her.

14 "John and Burke continued to sleep

15 while Patsy moved the body of JonBenet down

16 to the basement and hid her in the little

17 room.

18 "As I pictured the scene, her

19 dilemma was that the police would assume the

20 obvious if a six- year old child was found

21 dead in a private home without any

22 satisfactory explanation. Patsy needed a

23 diversion and planned the way she thought a

24 kidnapping should look.

25 "She returned upstairs to the

178

1 kitchen and grabbed her tablet and a

2 felt-tipped pen," and flipping "to the middle

3 of the tablet, and started a ransom note,

4 drafting one that ended on page 25. For

5 some reason she discarded that one and ripped

6 pages 17-25 from the tablet. Police never

7 found those pages.

8 "On page 26, she began the

9 'Mr. and Mrs. I,' then also abandoned that

10 false start. At some point she drafted the

11 long ransom note. By doing so, she created

12 the government's best piece of evidence.

13 "She then faced the major problem

14 of what to do with the body. Leaving the

15 house carried the risk of John or Burke

16 awakening at the sounds and possibly being

17 seen by a passerby or a neighbor. Leaving

18 the body in the distant, almost inaccessible,

19 basement room was the best option.

20 "As I envisioned it, Patsy

21 returned to the basement, a woman caught up

22 in panic, where she could have seen--perhaps

23 by detecting a faint heartbeat or a sound or

24 a slight movement--that although completely

25 unconscious, JonBenet was not dead. Others

179

1 might argue that Patsy did not know the child

2 was still alive. In my hypothesis, she took

3 the next step, looking for the closest

4 available items in ... desperation. Only

5 feet away was her paint tote. She grabbed a

6 paint brush and broke it to fashion the

7 garrote with some cord." She then -- "then

8 she looped the cord around the girl's neck.

9 "In my scenario, she choked

10 JonBenet from behind, with a grip on her

11 broken paintbrush handle, pulling the

12 ligature. JonBenet, still unconscious, would

13 never have felt it. There are only four

14 ways to die: suicide, natural, accidental,

15 or homicide. This accident, in my opinion,

16 had just become a murder.

17 "Then the staging continued to

18 make it look like a kidnapping. Patsy tied

19 the girl's wrists in front, not in" the

20 "back, for otherwise the arms would not have

21 been in" the "overhead position. But with a

22 fifteen-inch length of cord between the wrists

23 and the knot tied loosely over the clothing,

24 there was no way such a binding would have

25 restrained a live child. It was a symbolic

180

1 act to make it appear the child had been

2 bound.

3 "Patsy took considerable time with

4 her daughter, wrapping her carefully in the

5 blanket and leaving her with a favorite pink

6 nightgown." As "the FBI had told us ... a

7 stranger would not have taken such care.

8 "As I told Lou, I thought that

9 throughout the coming hours, Patsy worked on

10 her staging, such as placing the ransom note

11 where she would be sure to 'find' it the

12 next morning. She placed the tablet on the

13 countertop right beside the stairs and" put

14 "the pen in the cup.

15 "While going through the drawers"

16 and "under the countertop" -- "While going

17 through the drawers under the countertop where

18 the tablet had been, she found rolls of tape.

19 She placed a strip from a roll of duct tape

20 across JonBenet's mouth. There was bloody

21 mucous under the tape, and a perfect set of

22 the child's lip prints, which did not

23 indicate a tongue impression or resistance.

24 "I theorized that Patsy, trying to

25 cover her tracks, took the remaining cord,

181

1 tape, and the first ransom note out of the

2 house that night, perhaps dropping them into

3 a nearby storm sewer or among the Christmas

4 debris in wrappings in a neighbor's trash

5 can.

6 "She was running out of time.

7 The household was scheduled to wake up early

8 to fly to Michigan, and in her haste, Patsy

9 Ramsey did not change clothes, a vital

10 mistake. With the clock ticking, and hearing

11 her husband moving around upstairs, she

12 stepped over the edge.

13 "The way I envisioned it, Patsy

14 screamed, and John Ramsey, coming out of the

15 shower, responded, totally unaware of what had

16 occurred. Burke, awakened by the noise

17 shortly before six o'clock in the morning,

18 came down to find out what had happened and

19 was sent back to bed as his mother talked to

20 the 911 emergency dispatcher.

21 "Patsy Ramsey opened the door to

22 Officer Rick French at about 5:55 a.m. on the

23 morning of December 26, 1996, wearing a red

24 turtleneck sweater and black pants, the same

25 things she had worn to a party the night

182

1 before. Her hair was done, and her makeup

2 was on. In my opinion, she had never been

3 to bed.

4 "The diversion worked for seven

5 hours as the Boulder police thought they were

6 dealing with a kidnapping.

7 "John Ramsey, in my hypothetical

8 scenario, probably first grew suspicious while

9 reading the ransom note that morning, which

10 was why he was unusually quiet. He must

11 have seen his wife's writing mannerisms all

12 over it, everything but her signature. But

13 where was his daughter?

14 "He said in his police interview

15 that he went down to the basement when

16 Detective Arndt noticed him missing. I

17 suggested that Ramsey found JonBenet at that

18 time and was faced with the dilemma of his

19 life. During the next few hours, his

20 behavior changed markedly as he desperately

21 considered his few options--submit to the

22 authorities or try to control the situation.

23 He had already lost one child, Beth, and now

24 JonBenet was gone too. Now Patsy was

25 possibly in jeopardy.

183

1 "The stress increased steadily

2 during the morning, for Patsy, in my theory,

3 knew that no kidnapper was going to call by

4 ten o'clock, and after John found the body,

5 he knew that too. So when Detective Linda

6 Arndt told him to search the house, he used

7 the opportunity and made a beeline for the

8 basement.

9 "Then tormented as he might be, he

10 chose to protect his wife. Within a few

11 hours, the first of his many lawyers was in

12 motion, the private investigators a day later.

13 "That's the way I see it, I said

14 to Lou Smit." That's how evidence -- "That's

15 how the evidence fits to me. She made

16 mistakes, and that's how we solve crimes,

17 right? I reminded him of his own favorite

18 saying: 'Murders are usually what they

19 seem.'".

20 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Thomas.

21 Now, I want to ask you, do you still agree

22 with this analysis of the murder of JonBenet

23 Ramsey?

24 MR. WOOD: Are you asking him as

25 to the state of the evidence in August of

184

1 1998?

2 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I'm asking him

3 whether now he still agrees based on his own

4 personal knowledge of the case whether or not

5 he still stands by these statements.

6 MR. WOOD: I want to make sure

7 that we understand, Darnay, because he, as I

8 understood it, testified that short of media

9 reports and public statements he doesn't know

10 anything about the state of the evidence from

11 August of 1998 through September of 2001.

12 And I think in fairness, we ought to make

13 sure that we are asking him what he is

14 standing by.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: All right.

16 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Do you regard

17 the statements that you make on page 286,

18 287, 288, 289 as being true to the best of

19 your knowledge?

20 MR. WOOD: We've got a conference

21 again.

22 THE DEPONENT: Just a second,

23 Darnay.

24 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, um-hum.

25 (Discussion off the record between

185

1 the deponent and Mr. Diamond.)

2 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Hoffman. Yeah, as

3 I said, given what I knew when I resigned in

4 the summer of '98, I don't know the status

5 of the evidence now but this was a

6 hypothetical scenario that I purported that I

7 felt was consistent with the evidence at the

8 time. And unless something is changed

9 drastically or markedly, that I'm unaware of,

10 yeah, it's still my belief that something --

11 or let me state it this way: It's still my

12 belief -- or I still stand behind this

13 hypothetical scenario in that regard.

14 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right.

15 That's really all I need to know.

16 Now, I want to ask you about the

17 911 tape which was -- became controversial

18 because of alleged background noise and voice,

19 possible voice identifications. Did you ever

20 have occasion to listen to the 911 tape

21 analysis that was done by a lab in Los

22 Angeles or somewhere in California purportedly

23 to show that Burke's voice was on the back

24 of that tape?

25 A. Yes.

186

1 MR. WOOD: He listened to the

2 analysis?

3 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Did you ever

4 have occasion to hear the tape and actually

5 hear what the people were reporting as being

6 Burke's voice in the background?

7 A. Not on the aerospace engineering

8 equipment but on lesser equipment inside the

9 Boulder Police Department, yes.

10 Q. So it was actually audible on that

11 equipment at the Boulder Police Department?

12 A. No, Mr. Hoffman, let me make sure

13 I understand you. What are you -- what was

14 audible?

15 Q. Burke's or the voice of someone

16 who could have been Burke Ramsey talking in

17 the background at the very end of Patsy

18 Ramsey's, you know, conversation with 911.

19 A. Well, you're cutting right to the

20 punch line. There is a long story behind it

21 but, yes, myself and others listened to that

22 tape and heard this third voice.

23 Q. So do you -- were you able to

24 identify that third voice, you personally?

25 A. Well, I don't have any training in

187

1 voice identification, but certainly it sounded

2 to me to be a young male voice.

3 MR. WOOD: Are you asking him,

4 Darnay --

5 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Were you able

6 to draw based on your own personal experience

7 of hearing this tape that there was a voice

8 of somebody who sounded like a young boy?

9 A. Yes, that was my personal

10 observation coming away from that.

11 Q. Do you have any reason to believe

12 that that voice could have been the voice of

13 Burke Ramsey?

14 A. That's what I believe.

15 Q. Is it based on ever having heard

16 Burke Ramsey speak?

17 MR. WOOD: You're talking about

18 just listening to the child speak, whether or

19 not he has done a -- that's a sufficient

20 voice exemplar for testing purposes?

21 MR. HOFFMAN: No, no. I just

22 want to know in the same way that you can

23 look at handwriting for, you know, purposes

24 of article 9 -- article 900 in the Rules of

25 Evidence, that whether or not based on his

188

1 own personal experience if he's ever heard

2 Burke Ramsey and whether or not he thought

3 that was Burke Ramsey based on his own

4 knowledge of what Burke Ramsey sounded like.

5 MR. WOOD: I understand. I'm not

6 -- he can answer. But I'm certainly not

7 acceding to your interpretation of rule,

8 whatever you're talking about, article 900.

9 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, I'm

10 not asking you to accede. Actually, Lin, you

11 don't really even have to be involved in

12 this, so quite frankly it's my question --

13 MR. WOOD: I will because I

14 represent --

15 MR. HOFFMAN: And I don't know if

16 it's appropriate for you to always to be

17 trying to clarify it and put your spin on

18 it. I'm asking Mr. Thomas whether or not --

19 MR. WOOD: Why don't you ask him

20 a question --

21 MR. HOFFMAN: -- he could identify

22 the voice as being that --

23 MR. WOOD: -- that makes some

24 sense and I might not have to try to clarify

25 it.

189

1 MR. HOFFMAN: -- of Burke Ramsey.

2 MR. WOOD: Why don't you just ask

3 him a straight-up question. I want to make

4 sure and I have a right to make sure that

5 the record is understandable. You may not

6 like that and I'm not trying to spin it.

7 I'm trying to make sure we understand because

8 candidly and respectfully some of your

9 questions are difficult to follow which

10 apparently --

11 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, you

12 know, you have that problem yourself, Lin.

13 So and I've --

14 MR. WOOD: I agree.

15 MR. HOFFMAN: -- heard Mr. Diamond

16 have to go in and ask for clarification;

17 lawyers sometimes have that problem --

18 MR. WOOD: I agree.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: -- not personal to

20 you or to me.

21 MR. WOOD: I don't disagree with

22 you.

23 MR. HOFFMAN: The fact is --

24 THE REPORTER: One at a time,

25 please.

190

1 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like to be

2 able to ask Steve Thomas this question

3 without your helping with the clarification of

4 it.

5 MR. WOOD: Well, just as long as

6 the record -- go ahead and ask him the

7 question. I just want to make sure that I

8 have the right to understand what you're

9 asking, too. But go ahead and ask him and

10 let's get an answer.

11 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Do you

12 have any reason to believe that the voice was

13 Burke Ramsey that you heard on the tape?

14 A. Yes, that's my belief and, absent

15 there being other parties of whom or which

16 I'm unaware in the house that morning, this

17 third party to me is believed to have been

18 Burke Ramsey.

19 Q. What do you base that belief

20 on --

21 MR. WOOD: I think your time is

22 up, Darnay.

23 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) -- that that

24 voice is Burke Ramsey?

25 MR. WOOD: Darnay, I think your

191

1 time is up. Is it up?

2 MR. RAWLS: Yes.

3 MR. WOOD: Go ahead and ask your

4 last question. I didn't mean to cut you

5 off.

6 MR. HOFFMAN: Given the fact, Lin,

7 that you've interjected and eaten a little of

8 my time up, I think you should allow me

9 that. Thank you.

10 MR. WOOD: As long as it doesn't

11 cut into my time of what I know today to be

12 3 hours and 50 minutes.

13 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Mr. Thomas, can

14 you answer that?

15 MR. DIAMOND: It cuts into my

16 time, Darnay.

17 MR. WOOD: I don't think you have

18 time today.

19 MR. DIAMOND: I've got time to go

20 home. Go ahead, ask your question.

21 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Yes.

22 Mr. Thomas, is there any -- what is the

23 basis for your concluding that the voice that

24 you heard on the 911 tape was the voice of

25 Burke Ramsey?

192

1 A. The basis of that and very --

2 having to synopsize this for you,

3 Mr. Hoffman --

4 Q. Um-hum.

5 A. -- was Detective Hickman's travel

6 to the Aerospace Corp. in Southern California,

7 their enhancement of that garbled noise at

8 the end of that 911 call, those engineers

9 preparing a report and making findings I

10 think identical to the detective who was

11 there with the tape, her returning to the

12 Boulder Police Department with this

13 information and then each of the detectives

14 listening on admittedly lesser equipment

15 inside the Boulder Police Department to these

16 findings, I concurred with others that there

17 was a third voice on that tape that I

18 believed to be Burke.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much,

20 Mr. Thomas.

21 THE DEPONENT: Thank you,

22 Mr. Hoffman.

23 MR. WOOD: If we can go for about

24 five or a few minutes I want to just kind of

25 touch on a few things that you brought up,

193

1 Darnay, and then we will break for lunch.

2 Is that okay guys?

3 MR. DIAMOND: That's fine.

4 MR. HOFFMAN: Fine.

5 FURTHER EXAMINATION

6 BY-MR.WOOD:

7 Q. The FBI analyzed the 911 tape and

8 they did not find any such language, true?

9 A. I don't know what the FBI and

10 Secret Service did because it was my

11 understanding there may have been equipment

12 that was incompatible to conduct this testing

13 or for whatever reason but bottom line is the

14 Secret Service and --

15 Q. The FBI?

16 A. Federal Bureau -- yeah, were

17 unable to --

18 Q. They didn't hear the voice that

19 Aerospace heard, right?

20 A. I don't know what they did or

21 didn't hear or what they did or didn't test.

22 I don't -- I think one of those agencies

23 didn't even have equipment to test the tape.

24 Q. So you think the FBI didn't reach

25 a conclusion with respect to the 911 tape; is

194

1 that your testimony?

2 A. I don't know what the FBI or

3 Secret Service concluded, I know what

4 Aerospace did.

5 Q. And you also know that the tape

6 was taken to a fourth group and they came up

7 with different words from the tape than what

8 Aerospace had come up with, true?

9 A. I know that Mr. Hofstrom took the

10 tape to his brother-in-law for enhancement.

11 Q. Are you suggesting that his

12 brother-in-law somehow falsified a report?

13 A. Did I say anything like that?

14 Q. No, sir, I'm just asking you're

15 not suggesting that, are you?

16 A. No, you mentioned a fourth testing

17 facility and I simply replied that

18 Mr. Hofstrom took the tape to his

19 brother-in-law.

20 Q. So for whatever reason the FBI

21 doesn't hear the third party, the Secret

22 Service doesn't hear the third party,

23 Aerospace claims to hear it and then the

24 fourth group hears something different; is

25 that a fair generalization of the 911 tape?

195

1 A. I'm not sure that the first two

2 agencies ever heard anything because I'm not

3 sure they ever listened to the tape. I'm

4 just --

5 Q. Did you not bother to ask the

6 FBI, I mean, you -- please, Mr. Thomas?

7 MR. DIAMOND: Two questions.

8 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you ever

9 bother to call the FBI and say, gentlemen,

10 what did you find about the 911 tape?

11 A. I'm sure Detective Hickman, whose

12 assignment this was, may have done that.

13 Q. Well, what, did you ask Hickman

14 what did the FBI say? You know, we've spent

15 a lot of time with the FBI, Tom, what did

16 they say? Did you ask him?

17 MR. DIAMOND: Did he ask him

18 what?

19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What the FBI had

20 to say about the 911 tape?

21 A. Again, as I've said it's my

22 understanding, Mr. Wood, that I don't know

23 whether or not the FBI or Secret Service even

24 tested the tape. The first testing that was

25 done on it, to my knowledge, was through the

196

1 Aerospace Corporation.

2 Q. And did you -- have you ever

3 tried at any time as you sit here today to

4 make any efforts to find out about whether

5 the FBI or the Secret Service even tested the

6 tape and if so, what their results were?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Have you made any efforts is my

9 question?

10 A. No.

11 Q. As we sit here today, you've never

12 made any effort to find that out --

13 A. No.

14 Q. -- right? Am I right? Sometimes

15 the no comes out differently. The question

16 is you've never made any such efforts to find

17 out about the FBI or the Secret Service

18 testing of the tape?

19 A. I have not made calls or efforts

20 trying to determine that to the FBI or Secret

21 Service.

22 Q. As we sit here today you have not

23 done that?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. You slipped once, maybe

197

1 inadvertently, in referring to Darnay by

2 Darnay as opposed to Mr. Hoffman. When did

3 Darnay Hoffman first contact you about his

4 offer to represent you for free and to absorb

5 your legal cost in connection with the civil

6 litigation filed against you by the Ramseys?

7 MR. DIAMOND: Can we just get a

8 predicate that that fact occurred?

9 MR. WOOD: Yeah. I've got the

10 New York lawyer, you know what I'm talking

11 about, don't you, Darnay?

12 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. WOOD: For the record, you

14 stated that several months prior months of

15 April of 2001, you offered to represent Steve

16 Thomas pro bono, for free and absorb all of

17 his legal costs, right?

18 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, at one point

19 I did, yes.

20 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Right. Tell me

21 about that. When did he contact you?

22 A. I don't know. What's the date on

23 the document you're looking at?

24 Q. Maybe Darnay can tell us that if

25 you don't know.

198

1 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't remember

2 that either.

3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) But you know he

4 called you? I don't know that --

5 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I did not call

6 him.

7 MR. WOOD: How did you contact

8 him?

9 MR. HOFFMAN: I sent him an

10 e-mail. I don't have a phone number for --

11 THE REPORTER: Wait. One at a

12 time.

13 MR. WOOD: E -mail, whatever.

14 I'm not trying to -- I mean, you e-mailed

15 him.

16 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you get the

17 e-mail, Mr. Thomas?

18 A. This today is the first time that

19 I have ever spoken, correct me if I'm wrong,

20 Mr. Hoffman, that I have ever spoken

21 personally to Mr. Darnay Hoffman.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. And yes, I do recall not only did

24 he send me this e-mail but that on occasion

25 I would be on an e-mailing list that would

199

1 receive e-mails from Mr. Hoffman.

2 Q. So it is true that Mr. Hoffman

3 sent you, Steve Thomas, an e-mail in which he

4 offered his legal services to represent you

5 for free, pro bono, and to absorb all of

6 your legal costs in connection with any

7 litigation brought against you by the Ramsey

8 family; is that true?

9 A. Very generously so, yes, he did.

10 Q. Why did you not accept it?

11 MR. DIAMOND: He had a better

12 offer.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Better lawyer, Lin.

14 He got a better lawyer, trust me.

15 MR. WOOD: Why don't you all let

16 Mr. Thomas figure out what to say about this,

17 without being disrespectful.

18 MR. DIAMOND: Where is your sense

19 of humor, Mr. Wood?

20 A. In addition to that e-mail --

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Why don't you

22 answer my question, Mr. Thomas?

23 A. I'm trying to, Mr. Wood.

24 Q. My question is why did you not

25 accept it?

200

1 MR. DIAMOND: And you can

2 continue.

3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, but please,

4 just answer my question and we can move on

5 to something else.

6 A. In another e-mail, Mr. Wood also

7 e-mailed me the name and business address and

8 telephone number of a Mr. Daniel Petrocelli

9 in Los Angeles who he also suggested as a

10 fine attorney.

11 Q. Let me make sure we get that

12 right. Mr. Wood didn't e-mail you

13 Mr. Petrocelli's name. Are you saying that

14 Mr. Hoffman did?

15 A. Yes, my mistake, yes, that's

16 what --

17 Q. But Mr. -- and was that close in

18 time to his offer with respect to his offer

19 to represent you?

20 A. I don't recall.

21 Q. Do you think it was a few days, a

22 few weeks, a few months apart?

23 A. I don't recall the timing on

24 either of these e-mails. Maybe Mr. Hoffman

25 can help me out.

201

1 MR. WOOD: All I know, Darnay, is

2 I've got your e-mail that you posted on April

3 1, 2001, where you stated you made the offer

4 to him several months before.

5 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, I don't

6 remember exactly at what point after that I

7 also suggested Daniel Petrocelli who is, quite

8 frankly, a better lawyer than I am in these

9 areas, so.

10 MR. WOOD: Well, now we know how

11 Dan Petrocelli gets some of his business.

12 Let's go on to something else.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Through referrals,

14 Lin, just like most lawyers.

15 MR. WOOD: Let's go on to

16 something else.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I want to make

18 sure you very clearly have stated to

19 Mr. Hoffman you don't know the state of the

20 evidence as of the present date with respect

21 to this investigation, true?

22 MR. DIAMOND: State of the

23 evidence? What do you mean by that?

24 MR. WOOD: That's his term, state

25 of the evidence.

202

1 MR. DIAMOND: That's his term?

2 MR. WOOD: Yeah, it's why I'm

3 asking.

4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You said very

5 clearly to Mr. Hoffman you do not know the

6 state of the evidence with respect to the

7 JonBenet Ramsey investigation, as you sit here

8 today, the state of the evidence as of

9 September 2001, true?

10 A. After leaving the police

11 department, yes, that concluded my official

12 participation. I have followed the case

13 through the media, but as far as being privy

14 to anything that occurred in the grand jury

15 or continued evidence testing, I'm unaware of

16 that.

17 Q. You knew the state of the evidence

18 as it existed in the case as of March 2001,

19 true?

20 A. That was during the period which

21 -- no, the grand jury had concluded -- no, I

22 -- no, I wasn't inside the police department

23 reviewing evidence at that time either.

24 Q. But what you did know and you had

25 actual knowledge of was that a grand jury had

203

1 met for some 13 months and had not issued an

2 indictment against John and Patsy Ramsey,

3 right?

4 A. I don't know that. Do you know

5 that?

6 Q. Sir, was an indictment issued? Do

7 you have information there was an indictment

8 of my clients that nobody has bothered

9 telling them or me about?

10 MR. HOFFMAN: Actually, Lin,

11 Patrick Burke has information that he should

12 have told you about which he announced to the

13 media that according to him the grand jury

14 actually took a straw poll. Why don't you

15 ask Patrick Burke.

16 MR. WOOD: Let me tell you,

17 Darnay, that won't count against my time.

18 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

19 MR. WOOD: But you're right, it

20 was a straw poll; it was a vote not to

21 indict. Thank you for bringing something to

22 my attention that I already knew.

23 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.

24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Would you answer

25 my question, sir? It's pretty simple. You

204

1 know that no indictment was issued by the

2 grand jury, true?

3 A. I don't know what the grand jury

4 did.

5 Q. I'm not asking you what they did

6 in terms of whether they voted or not, sir.

7 MR. DIAMOND: I think he's asking

8 you --

9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I'm asking you

10 whether they issued an indictment to indict

11 John and/or Patsy Ramsey?

12 MR. DIAMOND: -- are you aware of

13 any public report of such an indictment.

14 A. No.

15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You also know that

16 after the grand jury was dismissed that Alex

17 Hunter stated publicly that all seven of the

18 prosecutors in the case unanimously agreed

19 that this was not a case where they felt

20 that evidence was sufficient to justify at

21 that time a prosecution. You know that, too,

22 don't you, sir?

23 A. That Hunter --

24 Q. Made that statement publicly?

25 A. Made the statement that his

205

1 advisors supported that decision?

2 Q. Seven prosecutors, not his

3 advisors, seven prosecutors, you know that,

4 don't you, sir?

5 A. I know that statement was made.

6 Q. Do you have any knowledge to

7 contradict the accuracy of that statement,

8 that is to say that some of those seven did

9 not so agree as Mr. Hunter stated? Do you

10 have anything to contradict that factually?

11 A. You would have to poll them,

12 Mr. Wood.

13 Q. I'm polling you. Do you have any

14 information to contradict that, Mr. Thomas?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, you understand, I trust, the

17 difference between probable cause to arrest

18 someone and sufficient evidence to justify a

19 criminal prosecution to prove guilt beyond a

20 reasonable doubt. Do you know the

21 difference?

22 A. You say you do. You're asking me

23 if I know the difference --

24 Q. I'm asking --

25 A. -- between probable cause and

206

1 beyond a reasonable doubt?

2 Q. Listen to my question. Do you

3 understand the difference between probable

4 cause to arrest an individual and sufficient

5 evidence to justify a criminal prosecution of

6 that individual to prove guilt beyond a

7 reasonable doubt; do you know the difference?

8 A. I believe I do.

9 Q. Can we agree that police officers

10 who are investigating a crime may form a

11 belief that there is probable cause to arrest

12 but the question of who makes the decision of

13 whether there is sufficient evidence to

14 justify a criminal prosecution is within the

15 domain and province of a prosecutor, isn't

16 that the way it works, sir?

17 A. Typically, yes, sir.

18 Q. And there's a third category

19 because you know the difference between

20 probable cause to arrest and sufficient

21 evidence to justify a prosecution to prove

22 guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the

23 difference between a finding of guilt, you

24 know that difference, too, don't you, sir?

25 A. I believe I do, yes, sir.

207

1 Q. You know the difference between

2 saying somebody is arrested for a crime and

3 somebody has been found guilty of a crime?

4 You know that difference, don't you, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It's a big difference, isn't it?

7 A. Sometimes is and sometimes isn't.

8 Q. You don't think there is a big

9 difference between someone being arrested for

10 a crime and someone being found guilty of a

11 crime?

12 MR. DIAMOND: Are you talking

13 about the quantum of proof, sir?

14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Answer my question.

15 MR. DIAMOND: Otherwise your

16 question is gibberish.

17 MR. WOOD: If that's a

18 statement --

19 MR. DIAMOND: Yeah, I object on

20 the grounds that --

21 MR. WOOD: -- it's an asinine

22 statement.

23 MR. DIAMOND: I object --

24 MR. WOOD: It's not gibberish it

25 is very clear.

208

1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you know the

2 difference, sir, between someone being

3 arrested for a crime and someone being found

4 guilty of a crime; do you understand that?

5 A. I've often arrested people who

6 were guilty of a crime and were subsequently

7 convicted of a crime.

8 Q. And you've probably arrested a lot

9 of people who were not found guilty of a

10 crime, didn't you?

11 A. I doubt it.

12 Q. You don't think that happens on a

13 frequent basis?

14 A. That police officers, or are you

15 talking about me, Mr. Wood?

16 Q. Police officers in general. I

17 won't go back into your background at the

18 moment on that?

19 A. That innocent people are sometimes

20 arrested?

21 Q. That people are arrested for a

22 crime and ultimately not found guilty of that

23 crime?

24 A. I don't -- I don't have those

25 statistics in front of me; I don't know.

209

1 Q. But you don't fight the idea that

2 that happens, sir, do you?

3 A. I think --

4 Q. Surely you don't think anybody

5 that is arrested is actually found guilty, I

6 hope?

7 MR. DIAMOND: I think his first

8 question is withdrawn. Can we hear the

9 second question again?

10 MR. WOOD: Yeah. Listen

11 carefully. It may be gibberish again to you.

12 MR. DIAMOND: Maybe.

13 MR. WOOD: It's not gibberish in

14 Atlanta. Maybe it is out in LA on the left

15 side.

16 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't fight

17 the general concept, sir, an idea that people

18 are arrested for crimes that ultimately they

19 are found not guilty of committing?

20 A. There is a difference between

21 being found not guilty at trial and being

22 innocent, Mr. Wood.

23 Q. It's the difference between being

24 not found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt

25 even where there may be probable cause to

210

1 arrest, there is a difference, isn't there,

2 sir?

3 A. I don't understand your question.

4 Q. You don't understand, then, the

5 difference between there being probable cause

6 to arrest compared to proof of guilt beyond a

7 reasonable doubt?

8 A. Yes, I have already answered that.

9 Q. You do understand it?

10 A. For the third time.

11 Q. Is the answer yes for the third

12 time?

13 A. Yes, for the fourth time.

14 Q. Thank you. Four times is a rule

15 of thumb. I like to get it at least three,

16 four is even better. Thank you.

17 Have you ever had an opportunity

18 to review any of Darnay Hoffman's handwriting

19 experts' reports, that would be a report from

20 David Liedman, Cina Wong and another

21 individual named Tom Miller?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know whether they were ever

24 tendered to the prosecution or to the police

25 department and rejected as not credible?

211

1 A. It's my understanding and this may

2 have been even after I left the police

3 department, that Mr. Hoffman made his experts

4 available to the prosecution.

5 Q. And they declined saying that they

6 were not credible or do you know?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. You don't know that. You do know

9 that there were other experts that reviewed

10 Patsy Ramsey's handwriting and did not find

11 evidence of authorship, true?

12 A. Who were those?

13 Q. Do you think there were not three

14 other people that looked at this and did not

15 find that there was evidence to find that she

16 wrote the note?

17 A. I don't know who you're referring

18 to.

19 Q. Well, there was a Secret Service

20 examiner, Mr. Dusak?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Speckin Laboratories?

23 A. Mr. Speckin, yes.

24 Q. Right. And there is one other,

25 help me. I can pull it if you want me to?

212

1 A. Alfred, Alford, Edwin Alford.

2 Q. Did you look at their conclusions

3 and remember them?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. What was Mr. Dusak's conclusion?

6 A. Mr. Dusak, I believe, his official

7 conclusion on his report for courtroom

8 purposes was no evidence to indicate.

9 Q. No evidence to indicate that Patsy

10 Ramsey executed any of the questioned material

11 appearing on the ransom note, was that

12 Mr. Dusak's conclusion?

13 A. Among other things.

14 Q. And he was a document analyst for

15 the United States Secret Service, right?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Then we have Mr. Edwin F. Alford,

18 Jr., police expert, examination of the

19 questioned handwriting, comparison of the

20 handwriting specimen submitted has failed to

21 provide a basis for identifying Patsy Ramsey

22 as the writer of the letter. Is that his

23 conclusion?

24 A. I remember Mr. Dusak. If you

25 have a document that would help --

213

1 Q. This is Mr. Alford.

2 A. I know. I remember Mr. Dusak.

3 If you have a document that would help me

4 refresh my memory on Mr. Alford, I don't

5 recall --

6 Q. Not beyond what I have just told

7 you, but if that helps you refresh you one

8 way or the other what I've just told you is

9 I believe Mr. Alford concluded?

10 A. Will you repeat his --

11 Q. Sure.

12 A. -- what he concluded.

13 Q. The examination of the questioned

14 handwriting comparison with the handwriting

15 specimen submitted has failed to provide a

16 basis for identifying Patricia Ramsey as the

17 writer of the letter?

18 A. If that's what the report says.

19 I certainly don't disagree with --

20 MR. DIAMOND: He's asking you

21 whether that refreshes your recollection.

22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you recall

23 Mr. Alford coming to that conclusion?

24 A. To a -- yeah, I think that's the

25 conclusion.

214

1 Q. And then Leonard A. Speckin, he

2 said that he found no evidence that Patsy

3 Ramsey disguised her handwriting exemplars.

4 Did you -- were you aware of that conclusion

5 by Mr. Speckin, a police expert?

6 A. Among other conclusions, yes.

7 Q. You understood enough about the

8 handwriting analysis that a legitimate

9 handwriting questioned document examiner

10 analyzes not just similarities, but also has

11 to analyze and account for dissimilarities,

12 right?

13 A. If you say so, Mr. Wood, I'm

14 not --

15 Q. I'm asking you, sir.

16 A. No, I'm not a handwriting expert

17 and don't purport to be.

18 Q. So you can't --

19 A. If you're asking me about my

20 layman's knowledge about handwriting science I

21 would be happy to answer your question.

22 Q. I'm asking you about your

23 understanding of the science when you were

24 the, quote, one of the lead detectives. Did

25 you not listen to what the experts were

215

1 saying and what their bases were and did you

2 not grasp the fundamental idea when you were

3 listening that they were saying we've got to

4 analyze both similarities and dissimilarities?

5 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.

6 Compound. You may answer.

7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you understand

8 that to be the case or not?

9 A. That was among many things that I

10 understood them to look at.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you know the

12 names? You gave me a couple but for the

13 record I would like to make sure I've got

14 them. I would like to get the names of the

15 Boulder police officers who took over in

16 effect the Chris Wolf case. You gave me a

17 couple; let's make sure we've got them all.

18 Could you give them to me now on the record?

19 A. I think Commander Beckner assigned

20 Detective Carey Weinheimer to complete the

21 Chris Wolf investigation in early to spring

22 of '98.

23 Q. Anyone else?

24 A. I don't know if he was working

25 with a partner or not.

216

1 Q. That's the only name you know?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. And I take it you don't know

4 firsthand or secondhand what caused the

5 Boulder Police Department to go back and

6 choose to investigate Wolf and get his

7 non-testimonial evidence in February of 1998?

8 A. What prompted that?

9 Q. Yeah.

10 A. That he was still outstanding, if

11 you will.

12 Q. A suspect?

13 A. It's whatever you want to call

14 him.

15 Q. What did you call him?

16 A. There were several people who were

17 suspicious in this case to me and I'm not

18 going to quibble if we want to attach suspect

19 to Chris Wolf.

20 Q. It's the word you used in your

21 book you referred to him as a suspect, didn't

22 you?

23 A. As I said, I don't have a problem

24 with calling Chris Wolf a suspect.

25 Q. Any -- did Darnay Hoffman or Chris

217

1 Wolf ever make any demands on you to retract

2 the statement that he was a suspect in your

3 book or threaten to sue you for publishing a

4 book calling him a suspect?

5 A. Not that I'm aware of.

6 Q. Just a couple more, then we'll

7 break. Are you aware of Mr. Wolf's prior

8 employment history?

9 A. My encounter with Mr. Wolf, as you

10 said, yielded little information. Other than

11 what Jackie Dilson may have provided, I don't

12 know.

13 Q. Did you make a copy, I know you

14 said something about you weren't sure if you

15 had copied it. Do you know whether you

16 actually made a copy of your master affidavit

17 when you were copying these police files

18 after you left?

19 A. I don't know. My answer is I

20 don't know.

21 Q. Would it help to ask you whether

22 you know whether you relied on it in writing

23 your book?

24 A. No, I don't think so.

25 MR. WOOD: Darnay, are you there,

218

1 Darnay? Hello?

2 MR. DIAMOND: Probably a good time

3 to break.

4 MR. WOOD: I guess we're going to

5 take a break. Could we do this. I'm going

6 to ask him when we come back -- since we've

7 lost Darnay I'm going to ask him about five

8 questions or so that address some areas, two

9 or three of which were marked as confidential

10 in the Wolf deposition. And what I believe

11 the protective order says is that, before

12 doing that, I need to let him see it and you

13 all will agree that he will abide by it in

14 effect, sign on, and keep that information

15 confidential. Can we agree that you all can

16 do that while we're at lunch?

17 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Did you want

18 this on the record?

19 MR. WOOD: Is that okay?

20 MR. DIAMOND: I'll talk to him at

21 lunch. He may not want to be subject to the

22 confidentiality order.

23 MR. WOOD: Only subject as to

24 Wolf's testimony.

25 MR. DIAMOND: We will talk over

219

1 lunch.

2 MR. WOOD: That he has designated

3 confidential.

4 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

5 12:58. We're going off the record. This is

6 the end of tape two.

7 (Recess taken from 12:58 p.m. to

8 1:54 p.m.)

9 (Exhibit-2 was marked.)

10 (Videographer Intern present after

11 recess.)

12 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

13 2:04. We're back on the record. This is

14 the beginning of tape three.

15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)

17 A.

18 Q.

20 A.

21 Q.

22 MR. DIAMOND: He's doing well by

23 some standards.

24 MR. WOOD: He's doing well by my

25 standards. You don't need to put that on

220

1 the record in case my wife, present wife, and

2 last wife number four sees it.

3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, I'm

4 going to go back and make sure I'm very

5 clear. The copies that you made of the

6 police file information before you turned it

7 back into the Boulder police, you knew you

8 were not authorized to copy that material and

9 keep it, didn't you?

10 A. Not necessarily. This was my work

11 and briefcase.

12 Q. So if it was the Boulder Police

13 Department report and your briefcase, you

14 thought you had a right to copy it and keep

15 it after you left the department; is that

16 your testimony?

17 A. If I later had to testify or if

18 there was a question about what I returned to

19 the department, that would satisfy that.

20 Q. Did you check with anyone within

21 the department to make sure that was the

22 department's policy and rules?

23 A. No, there was little conversation

24 with the administration after I left.

25 Q. As I understand it, you remember

221

1 last seeing these documents and the box that

2 had these documents in it, the ones that you

3 had been sent from the Boulder Police

4 Department people after they learned that you

5 were writing the book --

6 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry, after?

7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I thought that he

8 told me he started getting them in early

9 1999 after he announced he was writing the

10 book; isn't that true?

11 MR. DIAMOND: Okay. I misheard

12 you.

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) The anonymous ones

15 from whom you clearly believe were Boulder

16 police officers?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. I was confused and hopefully it

19 won't happen too often but it may not be the

20 last time, but as I understand your

21 testimony, you haven't looked for that box,

22 you just recall that you saw it sometime last

23 perhaps this March of 2000, right?

24 A. Yes, I had that box March of

25 2000.

222

1 Q. So you don't know because you

2 haven't looked today whether that box is

3 still in your possession, custody or control?

4 You don't know one way or the other because

5 you haven't looked for it, right?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. I'll give you a subpoena. I'll

8 get you to acknowledge as I hand it to you,

9 sir, would ask you to go now and look for

10 those documents that at some point are

11 consistent with the exhibit attached to the

12 subpoena. Do you acknowledge that I handed

13 you that subpoena?

14 MR. DIAMOND: I will. So

15 stipulated.

16 MR. WOOD: Thank you.

17 MR. DIAMOND: You asked us to

18 consider a request during the lunch hour with

19 respect to confidentiality.

20 MR. WOOD: Yeah, but I realized

21 you had already agreed to do the

22 confidentiality deal because of the social

23 security number.

24 MR. DIAMOND: But I've agreed that

25 I might designate portions of this deposition

223

1 subject to a confidentiality order. In terms

2 of subjecting my client to the terms of an

3 order that he is otherwise not subjected to,

4 we have decided we don't want to do that.

5 And so I would ask you simply just ask him

6 questions and don't -- refrain from

7 disclosing --

8 MR. WOOD: I'll ask him whatever

9 I feel is appropriate.

10 MR. DIAMOND: Sure.

11 MR. WOOD: You can decide or

12 Darnay can decide what you and he want to do

13 about it but, as I understand it, you don't

14 agree to be part of the protective order that

15 is available that Sean has reviewed prior to

16 the deposition today?

17 MR. DIAMOND: With respect to

18 third-party materials, that's correct.

19 MR. WOOD: Would you sign on in

20 any potential?

21 MR. DIAMOND: What's that?

22 MR. WOOD: You either accept the

23 order for Mr. Thomas or you go get a new

24 order that says that Mr. Thomas' deposition

25 in some part is confidential.

224

1 MR. DIAMOND: Mr. Thomas isn't

2 accepting the confidentiality order.

3 MR. WOOD: Fine.

4 MR. DIAMOND: I may well designate

5 portions of his deposition confidential.

6 MR. WOOD: Then when you do that,

7 you will have signed on to the protective

8 order.

9 MR. DIAMOND: I disagree, but

10 that's a matter for the --

11 MR. WOOD: Well, you will get a

12 new protective order.

13 MR. HOFFMAN: That is a matter

14 for the judge to decide.

15 MR. WOOD: Right, it is. We

16 won't count that part against my time, I

17 hope?

18 MR. DIAMOND: We'll count from

19 2:05 against your time.

20 MR. WOOD: That won't be part of

21 it.

22 MR. DIAMOND: Sir --

23 MR. WOOD: Let's go.

24 MR. DIAMOND: -- you're wasting

25 your time.

225

1 MR. WOOD: No, you're wasting my

2 time. Let's go forward.

3 MR. WOOD: Did I give you a copy,

4 too, Sean? I think I gave you --

5 MR. SMITH: I think so. I may

6 have the original.

7 MR. WOOD: -- two copies and the

8 original that I handed to the detective,

9 former detective, excuse me.

10 MR. SMITH: I may have the

11 original.

12 MR. WOOD: Yeah, I just wanted to

13 make sure I didn't give you all my copies.

14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas --

15 yeah, I've got it -- the 911 tape. Did you

16 ever hear any explanation as to why that tape

17 was garbled in part?

18 A. At some point during the

19 investigation I recall the tape coming to

20 Detective Sergeant Wickman's attention

21 initially because the 911 operator who took

22 that call thought there may have been

23 something at the end of the conversation that

24 was unintelligible.

25 Q. I appreciate that information.

226

1 But I would like to get to my question

2 because my time is limited today at least and

3 whether we finish or not is another issue.

4 But my question is, did you ever, sir, hear

5 any explanation as to why a portion of the

6 911 tape was garbled?

7 A. I'm not sure I understand your

8 question. Are you asking me why --

9 Q. Yeah, was anybody trying to figure

10 out why -- the 911 tape is a tape in

11 realtime, isn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And one would think that you would

14 hear in realtime voices that are on the tape.

15 You say there is something garbled. Was

16 there ever any attempt to find out why this

17 portion of the tape might be garbled and not

18 discernible to the human ear without some

19 scientific analysis? That's my question.

20 A. I don't think that it was garbled

21 in the sense that there was a defect in the

22 tape or something, that's certainly not my

23 understanding. I think the description of

24 garbled was meant to include the fact that as

25 this phone was apparently being attempted

227

1 placed back into the cradle, there was some

2 conversation that was not as clear as Patsy

3 Ramsey speaking directly into the phone, to

4 the 911 operator.

5 Q. You knew the phone from your

6 investigation was a wall phone, didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you hear any effort on the

9 tape to try to hang the phone up, a banging

10 or a tapping or anything of that nature?

11 A. The call obviously concludes with

12 the line disconnecting but, no, not that I

13 recall today without listening to the tape of

14 the phone banging.

15 Q. Do you know whether the 911 tapes

16 that were being utilized at the time were

17 recycled in the sense that they might be

18 taped over after a period of time?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Was any effort made by the Boulder

21 Police Department, to your knowledge, to try

22 to ascertain that information?

23 A. I would certainly think they did.

24 Q. But do you know the answer?

25 A. I don't have any knowledge of

228

1 that.

2 Q. Secondhand or otherwise?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Take a look at your book, if you

5 will, for me, page 15. Are you with me?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "In preliminary examinations,

8 detectives thought they could hear some more

9 words being spoken between the time Patsy

10 Ramsey said 'Hurry, hurry, hurry' and when

11 the call was terminated." Have I read that

12 correctly?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is that the truth, is that

15 accurate?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. "However, the FBI and the United

18 States Secret Service could not lift anything

19 from the background noise on the tape." Have

20 I read that correctly?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that the truth?

23 A. As we discussed earlier, yes.

24 Q. I thought you said you didn't know

25 what efforts, if any, they had made earlier?

229

1 A. I said in one case at least I

2 don't know that they had the proper or

3 necessary compatible equipment to try to

4 enhance this tape, nor did I know of them

5 ever submitting a report.

6 Q. All I would like to know is did

7 the FBI to your knowledge or the Secret

8 Service to your knowledge ever send the tape

9 back and say we don't have the proper

10 equipment to see if we can lift anything from

11 the background noise on this tape?

12 A. Again, we have discussed that and

13 that's my testimony, that not being my

14 assignment, it was my understanding that the

15 tape came back from the FBI and the Secret

16 Service without anything definitive, but I

17 recall there being an issue that somebody

18 didn't have proper equipment to do the

19 testing.

20 Q. Well, you don't say anything like

21 that here. This is definitive. The FBI and

22 the United States Secret Service could not

23 lift anything from the background noise on

24 the tape. Is that a true statement or not?

25 A. Whether, because they didn't have

230

1 the correct machine or because they didn't

2 lift anything if they did do some testing,

3 yes, that's a true statement.

4 Q. Why wouldn't you -- I mean with

5 all due respect I don't think you were trying

6 to do the Ramseys any favors in this book.

7 Why wouldn't you have said here that they

8 couldn't lift anything from the background

9 noise on the tape but that may have been the

10 result of inappropriate equipment. You didn't

11 say that or discuss that in your book, did

12 you?

13 A. If we're talking about the

14 production of the book, it was certainly

15 limited. I couldn't put everything in this

16 case into the content of the book.

17 Q. The bottom line is we're confident

18 that someone in the Boulder Police Department

19 can answer the question about the findings by

20 the United States Secret Service and the FBI

21 about this 911 tape. That's in the case

22 file, isn't it?

23 A. Undoubtedly.

24 Q. Good. And I don't believe I

25 asked you this; I wanted to. Are you aware

231

1 of any attempts to take a voice exemplar from

2 Burke Ramsey and have it analyzed against the

3 voice you think your human ear tells you or

4 because it's a third-party voice that it's

5 Burke Ramsey, any efforts to do a scientific

6 analysis by way of a voice exemplar between

7 Burke Ramsey's voice and the voice you think

8 might have been his on the 911 tape?

9 A. I certainly never received an

10 assignment like that, nor do I recall hearing

11 or knowing of anyone else who did.

12 Q. In December of 1996, who did you

13 consider to be the most experienced homicide

14 detective in the Boulder Police Department?

15 A. In the entire department?

16 Q. I think I'm pretty clear, sir, in

17 the Boulder Police Department, the detective

18 department of the Boulder police.

19 A. As I asked, that the detective --

20 there is a detective department and then

21 there is a uniform department where --

22 Q. I think my question said in the

23 detective department.

24 A. In the detective department I

25 think the most experienced homicide

232

1 investigator was likely Detective Sergeant Tom

2 Wickman.

3 Q. As I understand it initially Tom

4 Trujillo and Linda Ardnt were the two

5 designated co-lead detectives on the case,

6 JonBenet Ramsey case, true?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then after Arndt was removed,

9 did Tom Wickman take that place, did he

10 become the lead detective?

11 A. Tom Wickman or Tom Trujillo?

12 Q. You tell me whether it was Wickman

13 or Trujillo.

14 A. No, because there was no real

15 designation at that point.

16 Q. Were you ever designated by the

17 department as the lead detective or co-lead

18 detective on the case?

19 A. There were four or five detectives

20 who were designated as primary detectives who

21 worked this case full time with no other

22 assignments.

23 Q. My question was were you ever

24 designated by the Boulder Police Department as

25 the lead detective or a co-lead detective on

233

1 the JonBenet Ramsey case?

2 A. No, after Ardnt left -- actually,

3 prior to Arndt leaving, that designation was

4 not being used in the manner you describe it.

5 Q. The two shootings that you were

6 involved in while you were with the Boulder

7 Police Department, do you know whether the

8 department itself investigated those two

9 shootings?

10 A. I don't know the inception of a

11 unit called the Boulder County Shoot Team,

12 when that came into being but it was either

13 investigated by the Boulder County Shoot Team

14 or the Boulder Police Department.

15 Q. Are you aware of any information

16 relating to Patsy Ramsey, Mr. Thomas, that

17 you consider to be incriminating with respect

18 to the death of her daughter that is not

19 included in your hardback or paperback book?

20 A. In a circumstantial case such as

21 this there are arguments that could be made

22 that there is a lot of other information

23 contained within the files of the Boulder

24 Police Department that didn't fit into -- in

25 this book.

234

1 Q. Thank you. But I want to know as

2 you sit here today whether you are prepared

3 to give me the benefit of any information

4 related to Patsy Ramsey that you, Steve

5 Thomas, consider to be incriminating with

6 respect to the death of her daughter that is

7 not included in either your hardback or

8 paperback book?

9 MR. DIAMOND: Can you do that

10 without reviewing --

11 A. Yeah, without reviewing --

12 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. Can I get

13 him to answer without you suggesting the

14 answer which would be totally inappropriate

15 and I don't think appreciated under the

16 Federal Rules or by the judge. Please answer

17 the question for me without being coached by

18 Mr. Diamond.

19 MR. DIAMOND: Mr. Thomas doesn't

20 need to be coached by me, sir.

21 MR. WOOD: Well, apparently then

22 you need to understand that, don't coach him.

23 Coach him during lunch, do it in the last

24 two days you had him.

25 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Answer my question,

235

1 sir. Is there any other information that as

2 you sit here today know that you consider

3 incriminating about Patsy Ramsey in terms of

4 her being involved in the death of her

5 daughter that you didn't include in your

6 book?

7 A. To answer that big question, I

8 would have to review my reports and the case

9 file to determine definitively if there are

10 items that were learned during the course of

11 the investigation that I didn't put in the

12 book.

13 Q. So you would be able to do that

14 if you can come up with this box of

15 materials when you go to look for it and you

16 find it, right?

17 A. Or if you can allow me inside the

18 Boulder Police Department, I'll do that for

19 you.

20 Q. I think -- while I might have a

21 better chance of getting the key to the

22 department than you might, I don't think

23 either one of us is going to get that short

24 of a court order but I'll certainly try and

25 if you would like to try maybe we can both

236

1 together do it; is that a deal?

2 A. Deal, Mr. Wood.

3 Q. Okay. We'll go in combined and

4 ask Beckner to open the door. I would love

5 to see it and I know you would, too. I'm

6 going to try and go through and ask you if

7 you would to take a look at your book --

8 well, before I do that, let me ask you a

9 couple of other things.

10 Who is Dr. Michael Graham?

11 A. The name Dr. Michael Graham

12 doesn't ring a bell with me right now.

13 Q. He was not a consultant hired by

14 the Boulder Police Department?

15 A. He may have been but I'm not

16 familiar with that person.

17 Q. You don't recall Dr. Michael

18 Graham taking the position that the pineapple

19 found in JonBenet's digestive system could

20 have been eaten the day before? Does that

21 refresh you in terms of Michael Graham's

22 involvement?

23 A. No, since you mentioned

24 pineapple --

25 Q. I didn't ask you -- I asked you

237

1 about Dr. Michael Graham.

2 A. I'm trying to answer the question.

3 Q. Well, my question is, does that

4 refresh you about Dr. Graham?

5 A. In that limited way, no.

6 Q. There was clearly an indication

7 from a member of the Boulder Police

8 Department that they found at least seven

9 doors and windows unlocked at the Ramsey home

10 on the morning of December 26, 1996. You

11 remember that, don't you?

12 A. I've heard that referred to. I

13 don't know -- what detective are you

14 referring to?

15 Q. Have you heard that, sir? Has

16 that not been part of a presentation made to

17 you?

18 A. By Lou Smit or Mr. DeMuth?

19 Q. Either one.

20 A. What presentation are you talking

21 about?

22 Q. There were two presentations, one

23 in May and one in June. You attended both,

24 true?

25 A. I did.

238

1 Q. You took notes, didn't you?

2 A. I may have.

3 Q. You paid careful attention to what

4 was being said, didn't you?

5 A. I believe so.

6 Q. Have you ever heard that there

7 were seven windows and doors found unlocked

8 in the Ramsey home on the morning of December

9 26, 1996?

10 A. I don't know who the source of

11 that is right now but I --

12 Q. I didn't ask you the source. I

13 asked you have you ever heard it, sir?

14 A. Yeah.

15 MR. DIAMOND: Have you heard that

16 from any source?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) From someone

19 connected with the investigation, either in

20 the district attorney's office or the Boulder

21 Police Department?

22 A. Or courtesy of you and the media,

23 yeah, I believe I've heard that.

24 Q. Trust me, I wasn't there the

25 morning of the 26th and I didn't find the

239

1 status of the doors. I'm asking you

2 whether --

3 A. Nor was I, no.

4 Q. And I don't think I was around in

5 May or June when the presentations were made.

6 You heard that a Boulder police officer had

7 found as many as seven doors and windows

8 unlocked in that house on the morning of

9 December 26, 1996, hadn't you, sir?

10 A. You're sourcing that to a -- now

11 to a Boulder police officer detective and

12 that's not my recollection; DeMuth may have

13 said that.

14 Q. Do you think Trip DeMuth made it

15 up out of a whole cloth?

16 A. I don't know where Trip DeMuth

17 uncovered a lot of things in his

18 investigation.

19 Q. So you think that there was --

20 you feel like you can competently say that's

21 not true, that there were no doors found

22 unlocked or windows found unlocked that

23 morning?

24 A. I wasn't there that morning.

25 Q. Well, sir, you were not but you

240

1 have to rely, as you say earlier in your

2 testimony, on your fellow officers, right?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. All right. Well, did you go back

5 and ever look to see if there were ever any

6 reports that would have indicated that there

7 were as many as seven windows and doors found

8 unlocked in that house that morning?

9 A. I'm not familiar with the

10 detective or the report you're speaking about.

11 Q. How about Officer Reichenbach, how

12 do you pronounce his name?

13 A. Reichenbach.

14 Q. Do you ever recall hearing about

15 what he said when he met with Dr. Henry Lee

16 in terms of whether there was snow on the

17 sidewalk of the house when he arrived that

18 morning?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did he say?

21 A. He said, and he also said this to

22 me, that although there was due to what I

23 think was an 11 degree temperature outside,

24 there was a fresh frost and maybe a light

25 dusting of snow on some of the lawn areas,

241

1 but on the sidewalks and walkways around the

2 house, as he put in his report, as I may

3 have put in one of my reports, as we

4 presented to the VIP conference, that you

5 could not tell whether or not somebody may

6 have walked on those walkways in question.

7 Q. Or the wood chips?

8 A. I don't recall specifically him

9 talking about the wood chips.

10 Q. Did you also get some information

11 from NOAA about whether or not there might

12 have been snow expected to be found on the

13 north and west sidewalks of the Ramsey home

14 on the morning of December 26th?

15 A. I think one detective may have

16 gotten that assignment.

17 Q. And that NOAA indicated they would

18 not have expected snow there; is that right?

19 A. I don't know the results of that

20 NOAA report.

21 Q. You would have had the ability to

22 look at them when you were there and

23 investigating the case, wouldn't you?

24 A. Yes, I don't -- as I said, I

25 don't recall seeing that NOAA report.

242

1 Q. What did the FBI tell you, the

2 Boulder Police Department, about the

3 credibility of Dr. Werner Spitz?

4 A. Dr. Spitz I believe was the

5 assignment of Detectives Trujillo, Wickman and

6 possibly Weinheimer.

7 Q. They didn't tell you that, did

8 they?

9 A. No, but I'm trying to answer the

10 question.

11 Q. I know but we have a limited

12 amount of time today but if we don't finish,

13 we can come back and finish another day. It

14 would be helpful I think if you try to focus

15 and stay on task with my question. I don't

16 mean to cut you off. You have the right to

17 explain the answer but we can move quicker if

18 we go directly to answering my question.

19 My question is, sir, did the FBI

20 to your knowledge make any statement to the

21 Boulder police about the credibility of Dr.

22 Werner Spitz?

23 A. No, to the contrary. I'm not

24 aware of any such statement. And to the

25 contrary, the detectives assigned to Dr. Spitz

243

1 thought the world of him and thought he was

2 entirely professional and credible and I never

3 heard anything attacking the credibility of

4 Spitz.

5 Q. At either presentation, it wasn't

6 said?

7 A. No, DeMuth's presentation, other

8 than attacking virtually everything, the VIP

9 presentation, I took that Spitz was an

10 esteemed forensic pathologist.

11 Q. Relying on your fellow officers

12 again, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. There was a Barbie nightgown found

15 in the wine cellar where JonBenet Ramsey's

16 body was found, right?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. Was there any evidence obtained

19 from that nightgown?

20 A. Not that I'm aware of prior to

21 departing August of '98.

22 Q. There was no fiber evidence that

23 you're aware of that was found on that

24 nightgown?

25 A. Not that Detective Trujillo shared

244

1 with me.

2 Q. Was there any blood evidence found

3 on that nightgown?

4 A. Not that I'm aware of.

5 Q. Any hair evidence found on that

6 nightgown, to your knowledge, firsthand or

7 secondhand?

8 A. Not that I'm aware of.

9 Q. Was there any decision made or

10 conclusion drawn, perhaps is the better way

11 to say it, that you're aware of, from any

12 source, as to whether the panties that

13 JonBenet Ramsey was found in had been worn

14 and washed in the past or were new, in

15 effect, fresh out of the package?

16 A. I believe that was after my

17 departure that that underwear investigation

18 took place.

19 Q. So, again, the state of the

20 evidence with respect to that issue, you do

21 not know, true?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. Do you know whether there were any

24 autopsy photos that showed JonBenet from the

25 standpoint of being able to look at it to

245

1 see whether or not the panties, not the other

2 articles of clothing, but the panties, fit

3 her or whether they were obviously not a

4 correct fit?

5 A. It's my belief from detective

6 briefings that they were referred to as

7 oversized floral panties.

8 Q. Thank you. Were there any autopsy

9 photos is my question?

10 A. Without the long-john over pants

11 covering the underwear, I don't recall seeing

12 any autopsy photos of just the child in her

13 underpants.

14 Q. Was there any other fibers found

15 on the duct tape, other than the fibers that

16 Mr. Hoffman had referred you to with respect

17 to Patsy Ramsey's sweater or jacket?

18 A. I believe so, yes.

19 Q. And it's also true that those

20 fibers were not capable or there was no

21 identification made, no source found in the

22 investigation, true?

23 A. When I left, I don't believe those

24 other fibers had been sourced.

25 Q. And, you know, without going and I

246

1 guess we could do it if we need to, maybe

2 we'll do it later but let's just for a

3 moment see if we can't generally agree, that

4 there were a considerable number of fibers

5 found on JonBenet Ramsey's body and articles

6 of clothing that were not in fact sourced by

7 the investigation, true?

8 A. Whether artifact or evidence, yeah,

9 there were a number of hair and fiber pieces

10 in this case that I know they, Trujillo and

11 CBI, were trying to source.

12 Q. And as of August of '98 had not

13 been able to do so, true?

14 A. That's my understanding.

15 Q. And CBI had at one point come up

16 with a conclusion that there was a

17 consistency between fibers found on a blanket

18 in the suitcase that matched fibers on

19 JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is

20 that the right term?

21 A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth

22 refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever

23 offer a report or an explanation concerning

24 that.

25 Q. But the FBI disagreed with the

247

1 CBI, didn't they?

2 A. On what point?

3 Q. On the question of whether there

4 were fibers inside materials found in the

5 suitcase found under the window in the

6 basement consistent with fibers found on

7 JonBenet?

8 A. No, I'm aware of Smit and DeMuth's

9 position or stating this consistency of these

10 fibers, but I'm not aware of a disagreement

11 between the FBI and that finding.

12 Q. In your entire law enforcement

13 career, Mr. Thomas, how many cases have you

14 been involved in where the law enforcement

15 authorities concluded that there was staging

16 with respect to a murder?

17 A. How many cases am I aware of?

18 Q. Let me ask you and if you would

19 please help us move along. Again, if we

20 don't finish today --

21 MR. DIAMOND: Your questions are

22 not easy. If he asks for you to repeat it

23 that is his right.

24 MR. WOOD: Judge Carnes can -- if

25 I'm not being clear let me read it back.

248

1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) In your entire law

2 enforcement career, Mr. Thomas, how many cases

3 have you been involved in where law

4 enforcement authorities concluded that there

5 was staging with respect to a murder?

6 A. None that I can think of.

7 Q. And is it your term that the

8 ransom note found in the Ramsey home, have

9 you been one to describe it as the War and

10 Peace of all ransom notes?

11 A. I did not originate that term, but

12 I've heard that and used it, yes.

13 Q. This would be the War and Peace

14 of all staging with respect to JonBenet

15 Ramsey, wouldn't it, sir, if it's a staged

16 crime scene?

17 A. Well, I'm relying on the FBI

18 experts who analyze these cases every day for

19 a living and it was their conclusion that

20 there was staging in this crime scene.

21 Q. They just -- strike that.

22 The FBI that you rely on also,

23 though, told you that they have not any

24 reported incident of a parent garroting a

25 child to death; that's what the FBI told you

249

1 about the garrote, true?

2 A. With a ransom note present and an

3 apparent botched kidnapping where the body was

4 found in the victim's home, that is correct.

5 Q. Is it your testimony, then, that

6 there are cases that the FBI has in their

7 files where a parent has garroted a child,

8 has strangled to death a child by use of a

9 garrote; is that your testimony?

10 A. No, my testimony is I don't know

11 what the FBI has in their files concerning

12 their investigation or review of child

13 homicides.

14 Q. Did you ever ask about whether

15 there was any prior case that you could study

16 where a parent had used a garrote to strangle

17 a child; did you ever ask the FBI that?

18 A. I don't recall personally asking

19 them that.

20 Q. Do you know whether anybody in the

21 Boulder Police Department investigation ever

22 made that inquiry to the FBI?

23 A. There were several trips and

24 inquiries and phone calls and meetings with

25 the FBI. And I don't know, but it would

250

1 sound reasonable that one would ask that.

2 Q. If one asked, no one ever gave

3 you the answer and you didn't find out about

4 it, right?

5 A. They did explain that they have

6 seen cases in which parents have feloniously

7 slain their own children in any number of

8 ways. If garroting was one of those, I'm

9 unaware of that.

10 Q. Wouldn't that be something you

11 would want to know since you have a garrote

12 involved in this case?

13 A. Let me answer it simply. Again,

14 I don't know of the FBI, have any knowledge

15 firsthand or secondhand, denying or confirming

16 the use of a garrote in a previous child

17 homicide.

18 Q. I think I understand you. The

19 red fibers, we're talking about the red

20 fibers off the duct tape, right, the ones

21 that Mr. Hoffman asked you about?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That were consistent or a likely

24 match with Patsy Ramsey's jacket?

25 A. Yes.

251

1 Q. That was the red and black and

2 gray jacket that she was wearing?

3 A. I've always heard it referred to

4 as a red and black jacket, yes.

5 Q. It's the one in the photograph,

6 though, that was produced where they went

7 back a year afterwards and tried to find what

8 they were wearing, right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you aware of the fact that

11 Priscilla White owned an identical jacket,

12 that in fact Patsy Ramsey bought her jacket

13 because she liked Priscilla White's so much?

14 A. Until you told me that right now,

15 no.

16 Q. So I assume that no request, that

17 you're aware of, was ever made for the Whites

18 to give articles of clothing with respect to

19 this investigation?

20 A. They may have been asked to give

21 clothing; I'm unaware of that.

22 Q. There were no black fibers that

23 were found on the duct tape that were said

24 to be consistent with the fibers on Patsy

25 Ramsey's red and black jacket, were there?

252

1 A. It's my understanding that the

2 four fibers were red in color.

3 Q. Did you find Melody Stanton to be

4 a credible witness in terms of hearing a

5 scream of a child sometime around midnight?

6 A. I wish I could have talked to

7 her. I never talked to Melody Stanton.

8 Q. Did the Boulder Police Department

9 consider her to be credible?

10 A. This collective Boulder Police

11 Department, I don't know what their opinion

12 was of her, but certainly Detective Hartkopp

13 interviewed her and whether or not he found

14 her to be credible, you would have to ask

15 him. But apparently so, he never said

16 anything to the contrary.

17 Q. In your scenario that Mr. Hoffman

18 had you read into the record, your

19 description of the death of JonBenet Ramsey,

20 do you include in that description as

21 accurate that there was a scream as described

22 by Melody Stanton?

23 A. According to an ear witness,

24 Melody Stanton.

25 Q. So the answer is yes?

253

1 A. If the question is, was there a

2 scream and do I believe there was a scream

3 that this witness heard, yes.

4 Q. All right. In your description of

5 how JonBenet Ramsey died, you have made it

6 clear both in your book and in your national

7 television appearances that John Ramsey was

8 not involved, right?

9 A. It's my belief that John Ramsey

10 was not involved in this crime, you're right.

11 Q. Right. And that it was sometime,

12 as I understand your description of the

13 events, the next morning when he was studying

14 the ransom note that he became suspicious and

15 perhaps concluded, you say, that his wife was

16 involved, right?

17 A. That's what I purport in my

18 hypothesis.

19 Q. What did John Ramsey tell you

20 about who went to bed first on the evening

21 of December 25, 1996?

22 A. It's a big transcript. I would

23 have to review it.

24 Q. You don't know that?

25 A. Who went to bed first?

254

1 Q. Yeah.

2 A. In the Ramsey family?

3 Q. Yeah, between John and Patsy.

4 A. I would have to review my report

5 or I would have to review the transcript of

6 that Q and A.

7 Q. How about do you know as you sit

8 here today who got up first that morning?

9 MR. DIAMOND: According to John

10 Ramsey?

11 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What the Boulder

12 Police Department concluded. In your -- let

13 me tell you in your description of how

14 JonBenet Ramsey was killed, what was your

15 position about whether Patsy Ramsey was in

16 bed or out of bed that morning when John

17 Ramsey got up?

18 A. Well, without reviewing multiple

19 transcripts and reports, I don't recall the

20 -- the Ramseys made several inconsistent

21 statements --

22 Q. About who got up first?

23 A. If I could finish my answer.

24 Q. Well, if you could stay on track,

25 it would be helpful.

255

1 MR. DIAMOND: Finish your answer.

2 MR. WOOD: Please make it

3 responsive to my question about the issue

4 about who got out of bed first that morning.

5 MR. DIAMOND: If you find his

6 answer to be non responsive, your remedy, I

7 believe, under the Federal Rules is to move

8 to strike it and I believe that --

9 MR. WOOD: I appreciate you

10 informing me of the Federal Rules. Now I

11 know that you do know that some of things

12 you're doing is not in accordance with the

13 Federal Rules in terms of your statements on

14 the record.

15 MR. DIAMOND: I'm only trying to

16 do you a favor.

17 MR. WOOD: Thank you. I don't

18 need your favors, but I appreciate them

19 anyway.

20 MR. DIAMOND: Is the question

21 withdrawn or can he finish his answer?

22 MR. WOOD: I want to go back and

23 make sure we're on task by restating it. So

24 I'll withdraw it and restate it.

25 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I'm asking you,

256

1 Mr. Thomas, what was your position in your

2 description of this child's murder as to

3 whether Patsy Ramsey was in bed or out of

4 bed when John Ramsey woke the morning of

5 December 26, 1996?

6 A. From John Ramsey's account?

7 Q. I'm asking you, sir, what was your

8 position in your description of this child's

9 murder as to whether Patsy Ramsey was in bed

10 or out of bed when John Ramsey woke the

11 morning of December 26th?

12 A. I believe I write in my hypothesis

13 that she was out of bed.

14 Q. She would have to be, wouldn't

15 she? If you believe that John Ramsey, as

16 you say you do, is not in any way involved,

17 you would have to believe a couple of things,

18 that she had not gone to bed when John went

19 to bed, and that when John woke up, she was

20 already -- she was not in bed.

21 And you would have to believe one

22 other thing, wouldn't you, detective, former

23 detective, that John Ramsey didn't hear the

24 scream at midnight, right?

25 A. You have a series of five phrases

257

1 and questions --

2 Q. Let me break them down one at a

3 time. Listen carefully to me. Under your

4 position of the description of this child's

5 murder, John Ramsey did not hear the screams

6 described by Melody Stanton, right?

7 A. He never indicated, as far as I

8 know, that he heard the scream of a child.

9 Q. If he was as you say he was,

10 totally uninvolved in the murder of his

11 daughter, he didn't hear the scream, did he,

12 because if he had heard the scream, you would

13 have expected that he would have reacted to

14 it or been certainly willing to tell you

15 about it?

16 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.

17 Argumentative. You may answer.

18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) If he's innocent

19 as you say he is?

20 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.

21 Argumentative. You may answer.

22 A. One could speculate that he would

23 have heard a scream from within the house.

24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You will concede

25 that in fact Melody Stanton may be right that

258

1 the scream occurred and that John Ramsey did

2 not hear it, you would concede that as a

3 possibility supported by your description of

4 the events, right?

5 A. It is a possibility, yes.

6 Q. And it is more consistent with

7 your statements about John Ramsey's

8 uninvolvement than it would be consistent with

9 the idea that he was involved; can we agree

10 on that?

11 A. I don't understand your question.

12 MR. DIAMOND: I don't either.

13 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you understand

14 it, just so we make sure?

15 MR. RAWLS: Got it, I'm on it.

16 MR. WOOD: Thank you. I kind of

17 figured that nobody on that side of the table

18 would understand it but everybody on this

19 side would.

20 MR. DIAMOND: Can we ask Sean?

21 MR. SMITH: I think Sean has

22 already taken his position that he doesn't

23 understand any of my questions. I've dealt

24 with him too long. He's never going to

25 acknowledge that any of them are

259

1 understandable.

2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) When was Steven

3 Pitt hired?

4 A. I don't know if Pitt came to the

5 investigation through the district attorney's

6 office or through Sergeant Wickman but I

7 recall Mr. -- or Dr. Pitt being on scene or

8 being in Boulder, being involved with the

9 investigation was it summer of 1997 maybe. I

10 don't know for sure.

11 Q. Was there any plan or strategy on

12 the part of Boulder Police Department or any

13 other law enforcement agencies to try to put

14 pressure on the Ramseys through the public?

15 A. I think so.

16 Q. And wasn't that part of what

17 Steven Pitt was there to do?

18 A. I don't know what his employment

19 agreement or what his motivations were for

20 being there, but he certainly offered advice.

21 Q. On that issue?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And isn't it true that Lou Smit's

24 approach to build a bridge with the Ramseys

25 really was in conflict with the Boulder

260

1 Police Department's strategy of putting public

2 pressure on them?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the FBI was involved, Bill

5 Hagmaier, who I happened to know from Richard

6 Jewell's case?

7 A. Great guy.

8 Q. Yeah, wrong on Richard Jewell,

9 wrong on Ramsey, that's consistent.

10 Mr. Hagmaier was involved in the formulation

11 of this plan of public pressure on the

12 Ramseys, wasn't he?

13 A. I believe there were discussions

14 with the FBI, yes, about how to exert some

15 public pressure on people who are not

16 cooperating, yes.

17 Q. Part of that was to try to

18 portray them clearly to the public as being

19 uncooperative and therefor appearing to be

20 possibly involved in the death of their

21 daughter, right?

22 A. I think it was two different

23 things. I don't think they were necessarily

24 trying to further paint them as uncooperative.

25 I think they were using the media to get

261

1 them back in to help us with the case.

2 Q. Were they also thinking that they

3 might use the media to apply pressure so that

4 there might be a possibility that one of the

5 parents might confess involvement in the

6 crime? Was that ever discussed?

7 A. That may have been -- that may

8 have been some motivations.

9 Q. Do you believe from your

10 recollections that that was discussed?

11 A. I wouldn't disagree with it. I

12 don't have any concise, clear recollection of

13 a conversation like that.

14 Q. Did you ever review reports of the

15 officers that were with John and Patsy Ramsey

16 on a 24-seven basis from the time of the

17 discovery of JonBenet's murder up until the

18 time they left to go to Atlanta for her

19 burial? Did those officers provide the

20 department with reports?

21 A. At least some did, yes.

22 Q. Did those reports contain

23 discussions of the Ramseys' actions, conduct,

24 and just conversations?

25 A. Yes.

262

1 Q. Those officers were there not only

2 to possibly protect the Ramseys; they were

3 there clearly also to have the Ramseys under

4 24-seven surveillance to ascertain what they

5 might say that might be incriminatory, right?

6 A. Some of that; most of it was

7 prior to my involvement in the case so I

8 don't know what their instruction was.

9 Q. What do you believe from your

10 review of the records in terms of the reports

11 that these officers compiled?

12 A. Certainly 24-seven security but

13 these officers weren't going to ignore any

14 statements or comments by anyone that may be

15 incriminating.

16 Q. These officers weren't sitting

17 outside the door guarding the house. They

18 were literally, as you know from the reports,

19 they were right there in the room with the

20 Ramseys, right next to them 24-seven, weren't

21 they?

22 A. I believe so.

23 Q. Which points a little bit more

24 towards surveillance than guarding them,

25 doesn't it, sir?

263

1 A. In your mind maybe; I don't know,

2 I wasn't there.

3 Q. What about in your mind when you

4 reviewed the reports particularly since you

5 had the benefit of the substance of what

6 these officers were saying?

7 A. As I said, it's my belief that

8 they were there 24-seven as security but also

9 they certainly weren't going to ignore any

10 statements. You might ask John Eller about

11 that.

12 Q. Well, if I have the opportunity he

13 and a lot of others I would ask. You don't

14 know who ordered the guards 24-seven, do you,

15 or the surveillance 24-seven, whichever the

16 case may be, or some combination of it?

17 A. I think John Eller.

18 Q. And from your review of the

19 reports, do you have a recollection of seeing

20 anything unusual about the family's comments

21 or conduct from these 24-seven police officers

22 who were filing reports about them?

23 A. Yes, I remember they included in

24 their narrative verbatim quotes made by the

25 Ramseys and others.

264

1 Q. Do you recall any of those quotes?

2 A. I remember, I think it was in

3 Chromiak's report about Patsy and her sisters

4 praying, in another report Patsy making a

5 comment that she didn't want to live anymore,

6 didn't have a reason to live anymore. The

7 comings and goings of the Ramseys, just a

8 general recollection along those lines.

9 Q. Nothing in that that I'm hearing

10 that sounds incriminatory, wouldn't you agree?

11 A. Again, without reviewing the

12 reports, that's what comes to me off the top

13 of my mind.

14 Q. Let me ask you about that. How

15 many cases have you been involved in where

16 you were analyzing the demeanor and conduct

17 of parents who had a child found murdered in

18 their home; what was your experience in that

19 type of a case?

20 A. None.

21 Q. Do you have any experience, formal

22 training, in how psychologically or otherwise

23 one expects a parent to grieve when a child

24 has been murdered?

25 A. No.

265

1 Q. You met many times with Fleet

2 White, didn't you?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. And it was your responsibility and

5 I'm sure you carried it out in terms of

6 reporting because I think you get the record

7 so far at least as of August of 1998 you had

8 filed more reports than anybody on this case,

9 did you know that?

10 A. I believe so.

11 Q. And every time you met with Fleet

12 White either because he was and he was a

13 suspect himself, was he not?

14 A. Again, that ambiguous suspect

15 label, yes.

16 Q. And either because he was a

17 suspect as that term is used by the Boulder

18 Police Department or because he was a

19 witness, each and every time you met with him

20 and had discussions with him it was your duty

21 and responsibility to prepare a report about

22 it, true?

23 A. Not necessarily.

24 Q. Why not?

25 A. Well, initially he wasn't my

266

1 assignment. I think Linda Ardnt shouldered a

2 lot of that. And then after she was removed

3 from the case, Detective Jane Harmer --

4 Q. I'm not asking about Harmer. I'm

5 asking about you, Mr. Thomas. I don't need

6 to know about Harmer and Arndt. They can

7 answer themselves. I want to know if you

8 made reports on each of your meetings with

9 Mr. White. That's my question. Maybe you

10 didn't understand that one.

11 MR. WOOD: Despite that

12 interruption, you may continue with your

13 answer.

14 THE DEPONENT: Thank you.

15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, answer about

16 your contacts with Mr. White and whether you

17 made reports on each of those or not?

18 MR. DIAMOND: You asked him why.

19 He was explain' -- answering the why

20 question.

21 MR. WOOD: I asked him why --

22 you're right. I asked him why he did not

23 make a report, why he did not make a report.

24 MR. DIAMOND: Thank you. And

25 he's about to tell you that if you just let

267

1 him finish.

2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I assume what

3 you're telling me is because of Arndt and

4 Harmer somehow what they did, that's why you

5 didn't do reports?

6 MR. DIAMOND: Why don't you listen

7 to the answer, then you won't have to assume.

8 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Why don't you

9 answer my question about why you didn't

10 prepare reports when you had contacts with

11 Mr. White and then we can move to another

12 question.

13 MR. DIAMOND: You can now finish

14 your answer, if you haven't completed it.

15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Maybe now you can

16 answer.

17 A. Detective Harmer inherited I think

18 the Fleet and Priscilla White assignment, if

19 you will, and was friends with them,

20 compassionate to them trying to do her job as

21 a police detective. When she introduced me

22 then at some later date to the Whites, I

23 completed and prepared reports on contacts,

24 meetings, interviews that I felt were relevant

25 at the time certainly and did so concerning

268

1 the Whites. But every time I either spoke

2 or met with these people, no, I did not

3 complete a written report.

4 Q. Give me your best recollection

5 percentage-wise of how many times

6 percentage-wise you think you may have

7 prepared reports with meetings with Fleet

8 White or Priscilla White, half the time, 75

9 percent of the time, 90 percent of the time,

10 what is your best estimate?

11 A. I don't know how many reports I

12 completed and I don't know how many times I

13 met with them, but completed several reports

14 I'm sure concerning the Whites and met with

15 them a number of more times in which I

16 didn't. So half, a quarter, I don't know.

17 Q. So there may be as many as half

18 to 75 percent or 25 to 50 percent of the

19 times you met with them where we couldn't

20 find a report and find out what you all

21 discussed or what they said to you?

22 A. As I said, I don't know. I'm

23 trying to answer your question as far as a

24 percentage goes.

25 Q. I take it if they gave you any

269

1 significant information as it would apply to

2 the investigation of JonBenet's murder you

3 would have prepared a report, true?

4 A. And I did at times.

5 Q. So we can at least know that any

6 meeting you had with Priscilla White or Fleet

7 White by phone, in person or otherwise, if

8 there was any significant information about

9 the case, you would have prepared a report,

10 true?

11 A. Most likely, yes.

12 Q. Why would you not, if they had

13 given you significant information about the

14 case, why would you not prepare a report?

15 A. Well, again at the time and

16 standing in those shoes, you know, three,

17 four years ago, if it was significant at the

18 time and I brought it back to the police

19 department and it was significant, yes,

20 absolutely I think I would prepare a report.

21 Q. Fleet White tell you that when he

22 was downstairs in the basement with John

23 Ramsey that John Ramsey went into the wine

24 cellar room and turned on what he called a

25 neon light and then cried out, my baby; did

270

1 Fleet White tell you that?

2 A. As to the matter of flipping on

3 the light --

4 Q. Yes, sir.

5 A. -- yeah, I don't recall that.

6 Q. Do you have any knowledge as you

7 sit here today to deny it?

8 A. I would look at my report before

9 I gave you a definitive answer.

10 Q. Whose idea was it to go down to

11 the basement first after Linda Arndt suggested

12 to Fleet White that she ought to keep John

13 busy and they could go search the house.

14 And as I recall, Fleet White didn't really

15 want to go tell John that himself and asked

16 Linda Arndt to suggest it to him. Does that

17 scenario sound familiar to you and accurate?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Not at all?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. How is it inaccurate?

22 A. Detective Arndt's description of

23 that was that she gathered Fleet White to

24 occupy a distracted John Ramsey to keep his

25 mind busy and instructed him to search the

271

1 house in her words from top to bottom. Upon

2 which time Arndt's recollection to me was

3 that it was Ramsey who led the two men

4 downstairs.

5 Q. What was Fleet White's recollection

6 to you about who made the decision to start

7 down in the basement?

8 A. I don't know that -- again,

9 without reviewing my reports and my interview

10 with Fleet, but that's not today, consistent

11 -- no, Fleet White hasn't indicated to me

12 that he was the leader going downstairs.

13 Q. Are you telling me if Linda Arndt

14 says, listen, I want you two guys to go over

15 here and I want you to search this house

16 from top to bottom, you think that was -- is

17 to be interpreted as saying I want you to

18 start at the top and go to the bottom or

19 does that really say I want you to search

20 this entire place? What do you think is the

21 more reasonable way to interpret that

22 statement search the house top to bottom?

23 A. You would have to ask Linda

24 Arndt --

25 Q. You said you did?

272

1 A. -- but her -- I did and her

2 comment to me was, quote, From top to bottom

3 and the indication I took away from it was

4 that her instruction was to search the house

5 from top to bottom.

6 THE DEPONENT: Chuck, can we take

7 a break?

8 MR. DIAMOND: When you get to a

9 convenient stopping point.

10 MR. WOOD: If he wants it take a

11 break I'm fine. We will take it right now.

12 THE DEPONENT: Thank you.

13 MR. WOOD: Any time you want to

14 do that, Mr. Thomas, don't hesitate to ask.

15 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

16 2:57. We're going off the record.

17 (Recess taken from 2:57 p.m. to

18 3:05 p.m.)

19 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

20 3:05. We're back on the record.

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, were

22 the sheets on JonBenet's bed collected on the

23 26th of December for forensic testing?

24 A. I was told they were.

25 Q. And what tests were performed on

273

1 them?

2 A. I don't know. Detective Trujillo

3 had that assignment.

4 Q. Was there any test that you're

5 aware of that indicated the presence of urine

6 on those sheets?

7 A. Detective Trujillo imparted to me

8 that he had learned or believed that there

9 was not a presumptive test for urine

10 according to the CBI.

11 Q. Were they wet?

12 A. When?

13 Q. That morning. Did --

14 A. Unknown.

15 Q. -- you ask? Did you ask any of

16 the officers there, hey, by the way, were the

17 sheets on JonBenet's bed wet? Did you ask

18 that question of anybody?

19 A. I did not.

20 Q. Do you know if anybody else did?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. You don't know the answer to

23 whether they were wet or not?

24 A. I have been told that they were

25 urine stained.

274

1 Q. Who told you they were urine

2 stained?

3 A. Detective Trujillo, Detective

4 Wickman.

5 Q. Have you seen the photographs of

6 the sheets?

7 A. It depends on which photographs

8 you're talking about.

9 Q. Of her sheets, of the bed.

10 MR. DIAMOND: Have you seen any.

11 A. Crime scene photographs, yes.

12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did they say they

13 could smell urine?

14 A. I have been told that CBI says,

15 yes, those sheets which are still in evidence

16 smell urine stained.

17 Q. And did they stain because --

18 well, you don't have kids, but I don't know

19 if you've ever had a bed-wetting accident but

20 when you have children one day you'll

21 probably know this to be true, urine stained

22 sheets, were these stained, have you seen

23 them?

24 A. I have not seen the sheets.

25 Q. I mean, you write -- you have

275

1 written in your book that JonBenet wet the

2 bed. What I want to know is what evidence

3 supports that statement that you are aware of

4 and that you found out about?

5 A. Urine stained sheets, the plastic

6 bed fitting and the diapers halfway out of

7 the cabinet.

8 Q. The diapers had urine on them?

9 A. That's not what I said.

10 Q. Well, I'm -- diaper halfway out of

11 the cabinet shows that the sheets were wet or

12 that she wet the bed?

13 A. No, I think you asked me what led

14 me to believe that she may have wet the bed.

15 Q. Well, I mean it seems to me that

16 the answer is pretty simple. Did you ever

17 go look at the sheets? They were there for

18 your viewing if you wanted to, weren't they?

19 A. No, they were at CBI.

20 Q. You could have picked up the phone

21 and asked somebody at CBI about the test on

22 them, couldn't you?

23 A. No, Detective Trujillo told us.

24 Q. Did you ever see the written

25 report on that finding by CBI?

276

1 A. I don't know that CBI did a

2 report on whether or not the sheets were

3 urine stained.

4 Q. Surely you're not telling me that

5 the CBI's forensic testers performed, the only

6 test was to smell and look at the sheets?

7 A. As I said, I have been told that

8 there is not a presumptive test for urine.

9 Q. How about for the substances that

10 make up or are found in urine?

11 A. I have no training or knowledge of

12 that.

13 Q. How big was the area of the

14 sheets where they were urine stained or wet?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Isn't there something that

17 describes that, a report?

18 A. Urine stained sheets according to

19 Trujillo.

20 Q. Take a look at page 146 of your

21 book, please. Down at the paragraph that

22 starts "John Meyer." Do you follow me?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "John Meyer, the Boulder County

25 coroner, had barely begun his autopsy findings

277

1 before Lee questioned the urine stains found

2 on the crotch of the long-john pants and the

3 panties beneath them." Have I read that

4 correctly?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. To put this into context, this

7 would have been during the VIP explanation or

8 conference, right?

9 A. No, I don't believe so.

10 Q. I'm sorry, when do you believe

11 this event took place where Meyer was going

12 through the autopsy findings where Henry Lee

13 was present?

14 A. I believe this was in 1997 at the

15 Boulder Police Department.

16 Q. Do you know when in 1997?

17 A. My best guess would be maybe

18 March, February.

19 Q. Reading on. "Were there

20 corresponding stains on the bed sheets? We

21 didn't know, although when the crime became a

22 murder instead of a kidnapping, those sheets

23 should have been promptly collected for

24 testing." Have I read that correctly?

25 A. Yes.

278

1 Q. Well, you didn't know in February,

2 are you telling me that you found out

3 subsequent in time that the sheets were wet?

4 When did you find out,

5 Mr. Thomas --

6 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.

7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Let me -- why

8 don't you just tell me, when did you first

9 find out that the sheets were wet?

10 A. I do not think the sheets were

11 collected promptly. I think it was after the

12 fact. And one of the questions of this

13 investigation was that no one had checked the

14 bed on the morning of the 26th prior to a

15 wet bed possibly drying whether or not the

16 bed was wet. But the sheets nonetheless were

17 collected and described to me as being urine

18 stained and just recently saw something

19 corroborating that when Mr. Smit appeared on

20 the Today Show and there was a comment from

21 the CBI about that.

22 Q. Traces of creatinine were found;

23 is that what you're talking about?

24 A. I don't think that is what they

25 said on the NBC show.

279

1 Q. What did they say?

2 A. I think it said a CBI source said

3 the sheets were or appeared to be urine

4 stained.

5 Q. Let's go back and find out not so

6 much what NBC was talking about. Let's find

7 out what the police knew. Were the sheets

8 collected on December 26th, 1996 or not?

9 A. They were -- I don't know. I

10 wasn't there.

11 Q. What did you find out about it?

12 A. That at some point during the ten

13 days subsequent to December 26, 1996, when

14 the house was a crime scene, those sheets

15 were collected.

16 Q. At such time as they would have,

17 if wet, been dry; is that what you're telling

18 me?

19 A. Possibly.

20 Q. What was your understanding as to

21 Chris Wolf's employment at the time you first

22 began to investigate him in January of 1997?

23 A. Again, as I said, just what Jackie

24 Dilson had supplied verbally.

25 Q. What was that?

280

1 A. And that was, I think she

2 described him as either a current or a

3 one-time exotic dancer.

4 Q. What did she say that meant? Did

5 you say what does an exotic dancer do, Ms.

6 Dilson; did you ask her that?

7 A. No; I assumed it was a stripper.

8 Q. Did you ever to your knowledge

9 with the Boulder Police Department while

10 thoroughly investigating Mr. Wolf ever obtain

11 any indication that he might have been

12 involved in illegal sexual acts for money?

13 A. Again, he wasn't cooperative with

14 me and Gosage in our attempt, so I don't

15 know that.

16 Q. But you stayed on him for a year

17 according to your book?

18 A. He remained on this list, if you

19 will, for approximately a year.

20 Q. And you stayed on him because you

21 put up with Jackie Dilson for a year you

22 said in your book, didn't you?

23 A. Two parts, yes, I put up with

24 Jackie Dilson for a year, but Chris Wolf was

25 -- that assignment was reassigned.

281

1 Q. Well, but again relying on your

2 other police officers, did you ever learn

3 anything about any information compiled by the

4 thorough investigation efforts on Chris Wolf

5 that would in any way indicate that Mr. Wolf

6 might have performed such acts as, let's say,

7 go into an all-male strip party and allowing

8 members at the party, men, to perform oral

9 sex on him?

10 A. No, if you're suggesting if I was

11 aware that there were allegations that

12 Mr. Wolf was engaged in male prostitution or

13 hustling, I was unaware of that until now.

14 Q. I'm not making an allegation. I'm

15 asking you what your investigation found. I

16 am asking you if there was any indication of

17 any such conduct by Mr. Wolf. Any indication

18 that Mr. Wolf ever worked at a photography

19 company where he took pictures of children,

20 team sports ages as young as four to 15, 14,

21 15 years of age; did you get any information

22 about that?

23 A. Again, I was not successful with

24 my attempts at interviewing Mr. Wolf, so, no,

25 I did not know that.

282

1 Q. Did you ever ask -- in the

2 thorough investigation, though, that your

3 officers that you rely on conducted, did you

4 ever find out whether there was any

5 indication that Mr. Wolf might be a user of

6 illegal drugs at the time frame of '94, '95,

7 '96?

8 A. Again, I have told you, I don't

9 know the breadth or depth of Weinheimer's

10 investigation prior to clearing him.

11 Q. But relying on Weinheimer in this

12 case and others as you did, right --

13 A. (Deponent nods head.)

14 Q. -- you would have fully expected

15 Detective Weinheimer in a thorough

16 investigation to get those kinds of

17 information, or at least to get details about

18 Mr. Wolf's lifestyle and prior employment and

19 questions about whether he used drugs. Those

20 would be part of a thorough investigation

21 into this man's background, wouldn't they,

22 sir?

23 A. He may have.

24 Q. Isn't that what you expected him

25 to do?

283

1 A. Possibly unless he had other

2 reasons to discount Mr. Wolf.

3 Q. Well, sir, if you had been in

4 charge of Mr. Wolf's investigation that you

5 say you were not, if he had been assigned to

6 you, you would have gone back and done that

7 type of a thorough background investigation,

8 wouldn't you?

9 A. Not necessarily, Mr. Wood. If,

10 for example, in the first day, a detective

11 was able to corroborate an alibi for

12 Mr. Wolf, then you likely would not have gone

13 to all this extra trouble.

14 Q. Except here you know that would be

15 impossible since the only alibi he could have

16 offered would be to have been in the house

17 with a woman who thought he was involved in

18 the murder?

19 A. No. Because Ms. Dilson made that

20 allegation. I did not have his side of the

21 story. He may very well have put himself at

22 a different location with an independent

23 witness.

24 Q. Apparently that hadn't happened

25 here because you know that into 1998 Mr. Wolf

284

1 was still being investigated by the Boulder

2 Police Department as a suspect in this case

3 giving non-testimonial evidence, hair, fiber,

4 handwriting, right?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. That would indicate the alibi

7 didn't get him off the hook in terms of

8 investigation for over a year, wouldn't it,

9 sir?

10 A. Correct.

11 MR. DIAMOND: You're assuming

12 there was an alibi. I don't know if there

13 is any mention of that --

14 MR. WOOD: Yeah, I'm just

15 following up on the question of whether he

16 speculated there might be an alibi. Listen,

17 we don't need to waste time, you know.

18 You've got somewhere to be at 6:30 in terms

19 of some friends picking you up. Let's go

20 ahead.

21 MR. DIAMOND: Thank you.

22 MR. WOOD: I'm trying to make

23 that time frame.

24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you interview

25 Linda Arndt at any time subsequent to the

285

1 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?

2 A. Successfully and at times

3 unsuccessfully, yes.

4 Q. In the successful interviews, did

5 you prepare reports?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Would that be because there was

8 nothing significant said to you during those

9 interviews by her?

10 A. Typically police don't prepare, at

11 least it's been my experience, prepare reports

12 when simply speaking to or asking for a

13 clarification from a fellow officer.

14 Q. I was talking about an interview

15 more than a clarification.

16 A. No, did I ever sit down with her

17 for a formal interview? No.

18 Q. Did you ever try to?

19 A. No, when I had questions, it was

20 fairly routine just to go to the detective in

21 question and make your inquiry.

22 Q. Has Fleet White ever made any

23 statement to you about his opinion on who

24 killed JonBenet Ramsey?

25 A. Mr. White has always been very

286

1 careful with his language around me, as is

2 his wife and I don't know that I could sit

3 here and say today that he has come out and

4 made a declaration as to who he believes

5 killed JonBenet Ramsey. But the tone and

6 inferences of some of these conversations made

7 it fairly clear to me.

8 Q. You think you understood from the

9 tone and inferences what he was trying to say

10 but not saying directly; is that your

11 testimony?

12 A. I think I believe that I know who

13 Fleet has in mind as the offender in this

14 case.

15 Q. Why don't you just ask him?

16 A. I did not, that I recall, ask him

17 outright who he thought did it.

18 Q. I mean, you've talked to him since

19 you left the Boulder Police Department,

20 haven't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When is the last time you talked

23 with Fleet White?

24 A. I think I last saw them in

25 probably July or August of 2000 and then

287

1 again had a pleasant hallway conversation in

2 Jefferson County, Colorado, outside a

3 courtroom in the last couple months.

4 Q. What was the nature of your seeing

5 him in July of 2000?

6 A. A personal visit.

7 Q. Personal, but tell me, please, if

8 you would, the nature of the visit?

9 A. I think I had finished a carpentry

10 job up on -- in that part of the world and

11 in the late afternoon or early evening, drove

12 by their house to say hello and they invited

13 me to stay for dinner.

14 Q. Drinks?

15 A. I don't really drink.

16 Q. Whether you really drink or not --

17 most people either drink or they don't drink.

18 I don't know about I don't really drink.

19 That sounds like you might occasionally take

20 a glass of wine or drink, I don't know. Do

21 you?

22 A. I won't drink three beers in a

23 year's time.

24 Q. Did you have a glass of wine with

25 the Whites that night you had dinner?

288

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did they?

3 A. I don't know whether or not they

4 had alcohol.

5 Q. How many times do you think you've

6 seen them on a social basis since you left

7 the department in August of 1998?

8 A. Two or three maybe.

9 Q. And one was the dinner in July of

10 2000. What were the other two occasions?

11 A. Post resignation in August of '98,

12 maybe a time or two in 1999, I'm not sure.

13 Q. What were the occasions? You had

14 dinner one time. What were the other social

15 occasions; do you recall what they were?

16 A. That was the only time I ever ate

17 with the people.

18 Q. What were the other social

19 occasions, sir, what did you do with them?

20 A. Probably just stopped by their

21 house and said hello. I didn't meet them at

22 other locations.

23 Q. Do you consider Fleet and

24 Priscilla White personal friends of yours?

25 A. I don't know how I would

289

1 characterize these people who I have a lot of

2 compassion for.

3 Q. Do you know what you consider

4 someone -- do you know what it is to

5 consider someone a personal friend of yours?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do they fall in that category or

8 not?

9 A. It's an unusual characterization.

10 I have never had a relationship with somebody

11 that I met wearing one hat and continued that

12 in this context. So if you're asking me am

13 I friendly and would I consider myself

14 friends with these people, yes.

15 Q. Look at page 25 of your book for

16 me if you would, please, Mr. Thomas. Right

17 here (indicating) kind of give you a visual.

18 MR. DIAMOND: Do you see that,

19 Darnay?

20 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) "In the sun room

21 Patsy Ramsey examined a second-generation

22 photocopy of the ransom note, a smeary

23 version that showed little more than the dark

24 printed words. Rather than commenting on the

25 words and contents, she told one of her

290

1 friends that the note was written on the same

2 kind of paper she had in her kitchen."

3 Have I read that correctly?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who was the friend that she told

6 that to?

7 A. This was from Barb Fernie.

8 Q. And then "Police would wonder how

9 she could tell since they saw no

10 similarities." Have I read that correctly?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You're talking about police saw no

13 similarities between the second-generation

14 photocopy and the actual ransom note itself?

15 A. No, trying to source a Xerox copy

16 back to a particular note pad in the kitchen.

17 Q. The police couldn't tell the --

18 couldn't see the similarity of the Xerox copy

19 and the note pad, right?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. They would wonder how Patsy could

22 tell there was a similarity, right?

23 A. How one would make that

24 suggestion, how a Xerox photocopy of a rather

25 bland, generic piece of paper on which the

291

1 ransom note was written may have had its

2 genesis from a tablet in the kitchen.

3 Q. Not that it had its genesis, but

4 that it was similar, right? It was written

5 on the same kind of paper?

6 A. The Xerox copy did not leave me

7 with that impression, that it did not strike

8 me that way.

9 Q. Did that seem suspicious to you of

10 Patsy Ramsey?

11 A. A bit.

12 Q. Did you ever stop and consider

13 that she might have made the comment about

14 the similarity because she, sir, had seen the

15 original of the ransom note prior in time?

16 A. But I think in this context she

17 was looking at a photocopy.

18 Q. So you're telling me that she was

19 trying to say that from the photocopy she

20 thought that it was similar. You don't think

21 that she might have had the benefit of

22 knowing what the actual note looked like in

23 terms of the paper? Would you concede that

24 maybe that might be an inaccurate assumption

25 on your part, sir, you know, what you thought

292

1 was suspicious wasn't suspicious at all?

2 A. No, I'm simply stating what struck

3 the detectives in wonder is we thought that

4 Barb Fernie's statement was unusual, given

5 this context.

6 Q. On pages 26 and 27 of your book,

7 starting with Detective Arndt -- well,

8 actually it starts at page 25 "Time was

9 passing swiftly." For the next couple of

10 pages, and the content is not so much what

11 I'm focusing on. I just want to know, you

12 talk a lot about Arndt and observations that

13 she made. Was the basis for those comments

14 that you made about her reports?

15 A. Primarily, because at one point

16 she discontinued talking to some of us.

17 Q. She actually did more than that.

18 She told you that she didn't have any

19 recollection anymore about what she saw that

20 day, didn't she?

21 A. She made that statement or

22 something very close to that.

23 Q. Page 35, Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, do

24 you know who -- did you ever interview Linda

25 Hoffmann-Pugh?

293

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. You never had the opportunity to

3 judge her credibility yourself to see whether

4 she might, in your opinion, like Jackie

5 Dilson might be somewhat unstable or not

6 credible?

7 A. I don't know that I've ever met

8 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, no.

9 Q. Do you know how many days a week

10 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh worked for the Ramsey

11 family?

12 A. Without reviewing reports, no, I

13 don't.

14 Q. Do you know what time of the

15 morning she would get there and how long she

16 would stay?

17 A. Again, without reviewing reports

18 concerning Ms. Hoffmann-Pugh, I do not.

19 Q. Do you think you had some of

20 those reports about Ms. Hoffmann-Pugh in your

21 materials that you copied and after you left

22 the department or received from the Boulder

23 Police Department after you left the

24 department?

25 A. I don't know.

294

1 Q. We can only tell when we find

2 them, right, that would tell us more

3 information about what you know about Linda

4 Hoffmann-Pugh, true?

5 A. Or again if we can work our way

6 into the police department.

7 Q. Did you ever interview Shirley

8 Brady, who had been a housekeeper for the

9 Ramseys for almost four years?

10 A. The name sounds familiar and if

11 it's the person I'm thinking of who resided

12 in Georgia I think Harmer or Gosage conducted

13 that interview.

14 Q. They would have prepared a report?

15 A. I would think so.

16 Q. Shirley Brady tells me that she

17 got a phone call and about a five-minute

18 interview and when she said she made it

19 pretty clear that the Ramseys weren't in any

20 way the type of people that could be involved

21 in this, that the interview ended and she

22 never heard from anybody again. Does that

23 sound like a thorough investigation if that's

24 true?

25 A. It depends on what the detectives

295

1 were doing. I don't know what they were

2 doing.

3 Q. Well, you know if you have got to

4 -- if you're spending a lot of time with

5 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh who had worked for them

6 less than two years and only worked part time

7 and you want to know all about this family's

8 background, a thorough investigation, wouldn't

9 you believe, sir, from your experience as a

10 police officer that you're going to spend

11 more than five minutes on the phone with

12 someone who was a housekeeper for three

13 years?

14 A. For some reason in my mind, and I

15 may be wrong, I don't think Mrs. Brady was

16 ever in Colorado with the family. There was

17 apparently nothing that the detective who

18 interviewed her felt was worth more than

19 their five minutes. You would have to ask

20 them.

21 Q. So you had to be in Colorado with

22 the family in order to be a significant

23 witness as to their background?

24 A. No, not to their background.

25 Q. That doesn't make any sense, does

296

1 it?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I didn't think it did. I mean,

4 you know you all were looking to see if

5 there was any pathology in this family on

6 either John Ramsey's part or Patsy Ramsey's

7 part, right?

8 A. We did.

9 Q. And you didn't find any, did you?

10 A. What do you mean by pathology,

11 Mr. Wood?

12 Q. Mr. Thomas, please, you know what

13 pathology means.

14 MR. DIAMOND: Don't give him that

15 tone of voice or I'm going to pick him up

16 and walk him out of here.

17 MR. WOOD: If you want to pick

18 him up and walk him out of here, if you

19 think you're justified, do so.

20 MR. DIAMOND: Cut out the sarcasm.

21 If you have a problem with his answer, move

22 on to another question.

23 MR. WOOD: All right. May I ask

24 my question without your interruption, please?

25 MR. DIAMOND: You may.

297

1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, please,

2 do you, sir, not know what I mean when I

3 asked you whether there was any pathology on

4 the part of John or Patsy Ramsey from a

5 criminal investigation standpoint?

6 A. I simply asked you to explain to

7 me what you mean by pathology.

8 Q. As used by the people that discuss

9 that very term in your investigation. You

10 knew what they meant, didn't you?

11 A. I don't think, to answer your

12 question, that there was anything remarkable

13 or outstanding as far as what you're

14 inquiring about. Although, Pitt and others

15 would describe to us their concerns about the

16 beauty pageant world and child beauty

17 pageants, et cetera, if that's what we're

18 talking about as far as family history.

19 Q. Drug use, illegal drug use would

20 be pathology, child abuse would be pathology,

21 domestic violence would be pathology, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You didn't find anything about

24 that with respect to this family, did you,

25 sir, John and Patsy Ramsey?

298

1 A. Drug use, child abuse, or spousal

2 abuse, not that I'm aware of.

3 Q. Anything along the lines of

4 pathology that you believe you heard the

5 investigation found, other than Pitt and

6 others you say commenting about beauty

7 pageants?

8 A. No, there wasn't any sort of

9 untoward history or certainly no criminal

10 history that I was made aware of.

11 Q. When you were in these

12 presentations, either one or both, wasn't it

13 discussed that the experts hired by the

14 Boulder Police Department did not believe that

15 there was pathology?

16 A. I don't know to which experts

17 you're referring.

18 Q. Well, Dr. Krugman, do you remember

19 him?

20 A. Yeah, certainly. Dr. Krugman was

21 the one who put forth the bed-wetting,

22 toileting, and rage scenarios.

23 Q. Ken Lanning of the FBI?

24 A. I remember Mr. Lanning from

25 Quantico.

299

1 Q. What did Mr. Lanning say with

2 respect to his expectation in a case like

3 this in terms of whether you would expect to

4 find serious pathology or not?

5 A. I don't recall. I'll refresh

6 myself at some point I hope with that report.

7 Q. When you, sir, with all due

8 respect when you're sitting down to write a

9 book to state your, as you call it,

10 hypothesis that Patsy Ramsey murdered her

11 daughter, I'm just operating under the

12 assumption that you would have thoroughly

13 familiarized yourself with the investigation

14 before committing that type of a statement to

15 word for profit. Is my assumption wrong?

16 MR. DIAMOND: This deposition is

17 not about the authorship of his book.

18 MR. WOOD: No, it's about his

19 knowledge of the investigation, sir.

20 MR. DIAMOND: You can ask him

21 questions about that.

22 MR. WOOD: I just did.

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Is my assumption

24 wrong?

25 MR. DIAMOND: I direct you not to

300

1 answer the pending question. The next

2 question.

3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you or did you

4 not prior to April of 2000 familiarize

5 yourself fully with the significant findings

6 of the investigation of John Ramsey and Patsy

7 Ramsey in connection with the death of

8 JonBenet, yes or no?

9 A. I tried to.

10 Q. Did you feel confident that you

11 had in fact that familiarity?

12 A. Was I familiar with the case?

13 Yes, absolutely.

14 Q. Well, did all the experts agree

15 that JonBenet Ramsey was alive at the time of

16 the injury to her vagina?

17 A. Again, I don't know what experts

18 you're referring to but we had --

19 Q. The ones that you listened to.

20 A. Let me finish, Mr. Wood.

21 Q. The ones that your department

22 hired?

23 A. At times there was, among experts,

24 as was to be expected, there was conflict of

25 opinion. But regarding the prior vaginal

301

1 trauma if that's what you're asking about,

2 this blue ribbon panel of pediatric medical

3 experts they brought in seemed to me to be

4 in agreement on some other conclusions.

5 Q. I'm talking about the acute

6 vaginal trauma she suffered at the time of

7 her murder. The agreement was unanimous that

8 she was alive at the time that that vaginal

9 trauma was inflicted, true?

10 A. Yes, I believe that's correct.

11 Q. Now, tell me who the members were

12 of what you call the blue ribbon panel of

13 pediatric experts, give me their names,

14 please.

15 A. I think the FBI recommended --

16 Q. Just their names, not the

17 recommendation?

18 A. -- and tried to -- and he

19 participated, was a doctor from California,

20 Dr. John McCann, from Miami was Dr., I

21 believe it's, Valerie Rau and the third

22 gentleman from St. Louis, I think he was the

23 Dean of the Children's Hospital or the

24 pediatrics at Glenn Cannon and I don't recall

25 his name offhand.

302

1 Q. Anybody else on this panel?

2 A. On and off, we saw one of

3 Hunter's advisors, which was Krugman.

4 Q. Was he on the blue ribbon panel

5 that you keep referring to?

6 A. Krugman?

7 Q. Yeah, the blue ribbon panel of

8 pediatric experts that I asked you about.

9 Was Krugman on that panel?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. I think that panel consisted of

13 those three individuals.

14 Q. Take a look, if you would, at

15 page 45 of your book. Second -- actually,

16 first full paragraph. "An acquaintance said

17 that JonBenet was rebelling against appearing

18 in the child beauty contests. She was being

19 pushed into the pageants by her mother and

20 grandmother, said the witness." Who is that

21 individual?

22 A. I believe that was Judith

23 Phillips.

24 Q. Did you find Judith Phillips to be

25 credible?

303

1 A. At times.

2 Q. At times she was not credible?

3 A. No, I think Judith Phillips, like

4 many others in Boulder, were devastated by

5 this crime and she had tough moments, I'm

6 sure.

7 Q. Do you think John and Patsy Ramsey

8 had tough moments because they would have

9 been devastated by the death of their

10 daughter?

11 A. They certainly may have.

12 Q. Page 48, the first full paragraph.

13 "John was overheard to ask someone quietly,

14 'Did you get my golf bag?'" Did I read that

15 correctly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who overheard him ask that

18 question?

19 A. I believe that was either John or

20 Barbara Fernie.

21 Q. Who did they overhear him ask that

22 question to? Who was the someone?

23 A. They could not identify that

24 party.

25 Q. And when did that statement, was

304

1 it allegedly made?

2 A. The did you get my golf bag

3 statement?

4 Q. Yeah.

5 A. I think in the days following the

6 murder.

7 Q. Do you know how many days after

8 the murder?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And was there ever any concern in

11 the Boulder Police Department about a

12 relationship that developed between Barbara

13 Fernie and Linda Arndt?

14 A. I think there were concerns about

15 Arndt that ultimately led to her removal from

16 this investigation.

17 Q. My question was, sir, and let me

18 repeat it for you if it was not clear. Are

19 you aware of any concerns in the Boulder

20 Police Department about a relationship that

21 developed between Barbara Fernie and Linda

22 Arndt?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell me what the nature of those

25 concerns were.

305

1 A. As I recall, I think that there

2 was some feeling that Linda Arndt had gone

3 outside her police hat, so to speak, and was

4 involving herself emotionally with Barbara

5 Fernie.

6 Q. And potentially romantically or

7 sexually?

8 A. Never have I heard anything like

9 that.

10 Q. Look at page 52, the second full

11 paragraph, last sentence, "The officer said

12 she was told by a police intern on duty not

13 to be concerned because 'the detectives

14 already know who did it.'" Have I read that

15 correctly?

16 A. You have.

17 Q. Who was the police intern?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Who was the officer, Chromiak?

20 A. As it says.

21 Q. Who were the detectives?

22 A. I don't know because this was

23 prior to my involvement in the case, I

24 believe.

25 Q. Did you ever see any lab forensic

306

1 test forms filled out as early as December

2 30, 1996, that under the form area for

3 suspects had John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey's

4 name there and no one else's?

5 A. No, but it wouldn't surprise me.

6 Q. As early as December 30, 1996,

7 that would not surprise you, would it, sir?

8 A. No, with this ambiguous label of

9 suspect, no.

10 Q. With that ambiguous label of

11 suspect it would seem to me there would be a

12 lot of other people that would be on there

13 such as Fleet White as of December 30th,

14 right?

15 A. Right what, Mr. Wood?

16 Q. You can't -- I mean, you're trying

17 to tell me as I understand it, well, you

18 know, it wouldn't surprise me for John and

19 Patsy Ramsey's name to appear on the form as

20 early as December 30th as a suspect because

21 of the ambiguous use of the term suspect.

22 Well, you're going to apply the

23 ambiguous terms equally to all, aren't you?

24 Shouldn't we see Fleet White? Shouldn't we

25 see John Fernie? Shouldn't we see

307

1 Mr. Barnhill? Shouldn't we see Bill

2 McReynolds? Shouldn't we see all of those

3 people as of December 30th, sir, under that

4 as you now call it ambiguous term suspect?

5 A. I did not see the report. In

6 fact, if you see my reports, I think I refer

7 to them as subjects.

8 Q. When did you move them from

9 subjects to suspects?

10 A. I don't know that I in my reports

11 listed them as suspects.

12 Q. How about in your mind's eye, when

13 did you make the determination that they were

14 suspects?

15 A. Well, everybody was a potential

16 suspect from early on, Mr. Wood.

17 Q. Everybody?

18 A. Excuse my use of everybody. There

19 were a number of people who could be

20 potential suspects in this case from very

21 early on.

22 Q. Bill McReynolds was?

23 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry, could you

24 -- could I have that reread?

25 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Bill McReynolds

308

1 was, right?

2 MR. DIAMOND: Thank you.

3 A. Was a suspect as early as December

4 30th, 1996?

5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah.

6 A. Or shortly thereafter he became an

7 early suspect.

8 Q. At what point in time did you say

9 I think Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter?

10 A. I think the evidence led me to

11 those conclusions and further strengthened my

12 belief in the early months of 1997.

13 Q. When in 1997, the early months,

14 what does that mean? Tell me what that

15 means with some specificity, please, sir.

16 A. There was not a defining moment in

17 which the bell rang and I noted the date and

18 time. Early in 1997 it became more and more

19 apparent to me that that's where the

20 abundance of evidence was leading.

21 Q. And you were heavily influenced in

22 that determination by the conclusion of John

23 Foster, weren't you, sir?

24 A. Don Foster?

25 Q. Don Foster, yeah.

309

1 A. No, he did not come on board for

2 I think almost another year.

3 Q. Right. So you had decided in

4 your mind's eye that Patsy Ramsey killed her

5 daughter many months before Don Foster made

6 the appearance as a consultant in the case,

7 right?

8 A. Again, Mr. Wood, as I said, I

9 felt there was an abundance of evidence

10 pointing in that direction. And that became

11 -- and others viewed it the same way,

12 incidentally. And, yes, in those early

13 months of '97, she looked pretty good for

14 that.

15 Q. Yes, sir. Thank you. But that

16 doesn't answer my question. You had decided

17 in your mind's eye that Patsy Ramsey killed

18 her daughter many months before Don Foster

19 made his appearance as a consultant in the

20 case, true?

21 A. I felt that she was the best

22 suspect, yes, many months prior to Don's

23 Foster's involvement.

24 Q. Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 2 is

25 Mr. Foster's letter to my client, Patsy

310

1 Ramsey. Have you seen that letter before?

2 A. I haven't looked at it yet.

3 Q. Do you think there was more than

4 one?

5 MR. DIAMOND: Can you hold on a

6 second?

7 MR. WOOD: Did I call that

8 Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, it's Defendants'

9 Exhibit 2, excuse me.

10 MR. SMITH: I don't have any --

11 MR. WOOD: I can't hear you. I

12 can assume the general gist of what you're

13 saying.

14 (Pause.)

15 MR. WOOD: Do you want to go off

16 the record to save tape?

17 MR. DIAMOND: No, I will be done

18 in a second. How are you doing?

19 THE DEPONENT: Yeah, I'm keeping

20 up with you on it.

21 MR. DIAMOND: Do you want to give

22 him a moment to look at it?

23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) If you want to

24 look at it, we can take a break instead of

25 wasting tape because I don't want it to count

311

1 against my time?

2 MR. DIAMOND: If you show him a

3 document he has a right to read it. If you

4 only come with one we've got to read it one

5 at a time. This is your time use it the

6 way you want.

7 MR. WOOD: Every road goes in two

8 directions, Mr. --

9 MR. DIAMOND: Diamond.

10 MR. WOOD: Diamond, is that your

11 name? I'm sorry, I forgot it just

12 momentarily. Why don't we take a five-minute

13 break and let him read that. I need to go

14 to the restroom anyway.

15 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

16 3:48. We're going off the record.

17 (Recess taken from 3:48 p.m. to

18 3:53 p.m.)

19 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

20 3:53. We're back on the record.

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Defendants' Exhibit

22 Number 2, you've had an opportunity to review

23 it during the break?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That is what you recall being as

312

1 being a true and correct copy of a letter

2 that was subsequently brought to your

3 attention at some point in the investigation

4 that Mr. Foster, Don Foster, had written to

5 Patsy Ramsey in June of 1997?

6 A. I had only seen the first page of

7 that.

8 Q. Does the first page appear to be

9 a true and correct copy of that page that

10 you saw?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. DIAMOND: Did you get an

13 audible response?

14 MR. WOOD: I thought he said yes.

15 Did you get a yes?

16 THE REPORTER: Yes.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Page 67 of your

18 book, bottom paragraph "Later a friend who

19 had come out from Boulder for the services

20 recalled that she was asked by Patsy to

21 retrieve the black jeans Patsy had worn ...

22 the morning of December 26th." Who was that

23 friend?

24 A. I believe that was Priscilla

25 White.

313

1 Q. Did you ever consider that perhaps

2 Patsy Ramsey wanted those jeans because she

3 wanted some casual clothes and did not at

4 that time feel like going out and shopping?

5 A. No, it struck me as unusual, as I

6 said, to transport a pair of jeans 1500 miles

7 to Atlanta from Boulder.

8 Q. You think that was incriminatory?

9 A. It struck me as odd, Mr. Wood.

10 Q. Did it strike you as odd that the

11 Boulder Police Department never made a request

12 to the Ramsey family to obtain the articles

13 of clothing that they wore on the 25th of

14 December for almost a year?

15 MR. DIAMOND: Are you representing

16 that is the case?

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I think Mr. Thomas

18 knows that is absolutely the case, don't you?

19 A. Which question?

20 Q. That the one that I -- well, the

21 Boulder Police Department didn't ask John and

22 Patsy Ramsey for the articles of clothing

23 they had worn on the 25th of December, 1996

24 until almost a year later, true?

25 A. For a long time, that was a

314

1 mistake, yes.

2 Q. Didn't that strike you as odd?

3 A. That the police did that?

4 Q. You and the police, you were part

5 of the case?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why did you do it?

8 A. Why did I do what?

9 Q. Why didn't you ask the Ramseys to

10 give you the articles of clothing they wore?

11 A. In hindsight, that was important.

12 Q. You had already concluded that

13 Patsy Ramsey committed the crime before you

14 even asked for the clothes that she had worn,

15 true?

16 A. Those should have been collected

17 the first day and they weren't.

18 Q. You had already concluded that

19 Patsy Ramsey had committed the crime before

20 you even asked the Ramseys for the clothes

21 they had worn that night, true?

22 A. It was my belief that that

23 evidence that I'm talking about led to Patsy

24 Ramsey. So yes, she was the best suspect

25 before we wound up collecting their clothes.

315

1 Q. I'm not asking you about who is

2 the best. I'm talking about you, Steve

3 Thomas, a lead detective had concluded that

4 Patsy Ramsey had killed her daughter,

5 JonBenet, months before you or the Boulder

6 Police Department even asked for the clothes

7 that she and her husband were wearing that

8 night; is that true?

9 MR. DIAMOND: Asked and answered.

10 You can answer.

11 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Can I get an

12 answer and then we can move on. Am I

13 correct, sir?

14 A. That's my belief that she was

15 involved.

16 Q. And the timing is correct, right?

17 A. Prior to the retrieval of the

18 clothing, yes.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. It seems

20 like it was a pretty simple question.

21 MR. DIAMOND: You wanted to put

22 your words in his mouth and he didn't want

23 to swallow them, which is his right.

24 MR. WOOD: Well, the truth then

25 one can surmise why one has difficulty

316

1 swallowing the truth.

2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Sir, let me ask

3 you --

4 MR. DIAMOND: That's a hot-headed

5 remark.

6 MR. WOOD: What?

7 MR. DIAMOND: That's a hot-headed

8 remark.

9 MR. WOOD: Well, I don't think

10 it's any more hot headed than your comment

11 made about swallowing the truth and making --

12 and taking my words?

13 MR. DIAMOND: Try swallowing the

14 truth.

15 MR. WOOD: Your comment, sir,

16 you're the one that got into the swallowing.

17 So, you know, if you stay away from there, I

18 don't need to go there.

19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What happened to

20 pages 17 through 25 of the pad, do you know,

21 from where CBI concluded that the ransom note

22 was written?

23 A. Are we talking about Patsy's

24 tablets?

25 Q. Seventeen through 25 of the tablet

317

1 that was given to the police that morning by

2 John Ramsey because it contained handwriting

3 by Patsy.

4 A. Seventeen through 25 I believe

5 remained unaccounted for.

6 Q. Was there a note from Bill

7 McReynolds found torn up in JonBenet's trash

8 can in her room?

9 A. I have heard that.

10 Q. Did you ever check to see if that

11 were true?

12 A. I think I was told that it was

13 some sort of card.

14 Q. From Bill McReynolds?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was it ever fingerprinted, do you

17 know?

18 A. Detective Trujillo would know that.

19 I don't.

20 Q. Did you ever try to find out?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you ever try to find out what

23 the card said?

24 A. I recall at one time. I don't

25 now.

318

1 Q. What was the object that struck

2 the blow that fractured JonBenet Ramsey's

3 skull?

4 A. I don't know. A blunt object. I

5 don't believe, at least during the time I was

6 involved in the investigation, it was

7 identified.

8 Q. Were there any forensic tests

9 conducted to determine the force one would

10 have to exert on her head to create a

11 fracture of the magnitude found on autopsy?

12 A. Are we talking like torque and

13 foot pound pressure, that sort of thing?

14 Q. You're the expert it sounds like,

15 yeah, sure.

16 A. I'm not. But I'm not familiar

17 with any tests like that.

18 Q. There apparently could have been

19 some I take it?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. Did you all get any experts

22 involved, consultants involved in the Boulder

23 Police Department to look into that issue?

24 A. Dr. Spitz in Michigan did some

25 testing.

319

1 Q. Anyone besides Dr. Spitz?

2 A. Not that I'm aware of. But Dr.

3 Spitz' testing was trying to determine

4 potential blunt object instruments that may

5 have caused that injury.

6 Q. Not the force or torque or foot

7 pound pressure?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Are you aware from your

10 investigation of any statements by John Ramsey

11 or Patsy Ramsey that they thought that Fleet

12 White or Priscilla White or both killed their

13 daughter JonBenet?

14 A. Yes, if those transcripts serve

15 memory correctly, yeah, they cast suspicion on

16 the Whites, yes.

17 Q. Well, then, I mean, please, with

18 all due respect, casting suspicion by saying

19 that you suspect someone is different than

20 saying that you believe that they killed your

21 daughter, can we not agree on that, sir?

22 A. I believe the Ramseys only sat

23 down a couple times with --

24 Q. I didn't ask you that, sir.

25 A. -- the government and -- please.

320

1 MR. DIAMOND: You may finish.

2 MR. WOOD: You may but I mean at

3 some point I'm going to have to maybe get

4 the judge to direct him to answer the

5 question. She certainly would if in fact he

6 were in front of her. I didn't ask him

7 about how many times the Ramseys sat down

8 with the government. I asked him, please,

9 with all due respect, casting suspicion by

10 saying you suspect someone is different than

11 saying that you believe -- strike that. Let

12 me go back. Please, with all due respect,

13 casting suspicion by saying that you suspect

14 someone is different than saying that you

15 believe that that person killed your daughter;

16 can we agree on that, sir.

17 MR. DIAMOND: And he was answering

18 that question.

19 MR. WOOD: Would you answer that

20 question, Mr. Thomas, and if you do not want

21 to answer that question then I'm going to

22 consider upon recess whether I'm going to

23 adjourn this deposition and get some guidance

24 today on another occasion to have this

25 witness quit wasting time by being non

321

1 responsive to the question. Why don't you

2 counsel him on a break here and let's take

3 two minutes and let me talk to Mr. Rawls

4 because I'm kind of reaching the end of my

5 rope with you and him.

6 MR. DIAMOND: We're not -- we're

7 going to stay on the record.

8 MR. WOOD: Let him answer the

9 question then.

10 MR. DIAMOND: He may in any way

11 he sees fit. Do you want the question

12 reread?

13 THE DEPONENT: Yeah, please.

14 MR. DIAMOND: Madam reporter?

15 MR. WOOD: Ready. Do you want to

16 read it back to him maybe he'll understand

17 it. He didn't seem to have this problem

18 with Mr. Hoffman's questions.

19 MR. DIAMOND: Could be a

20 reflection on Mr. Hoffman.

21 MR. WOOD: Could be a reflection

22 on woodshedding by the lawyers more

23 appropriately. I don't think anybody skilled

24 in litigation is going to have any questions

25 about what this witness and his lawyers have

322

1 done and told him to do. It's pretty

2 obvious. Thank goodness we have the record

3 both video and stenographically.

4 (Page 279, line 23 through page

5 280, line 2 read.)

6 A. I think the Ramseys were very

7 careful in how they cast that suspicion and I

8 would have to review those transcripts as to

9 their verbatim language to refresh myself

10 because as I sit here today, four years

11 later, I don't recall that.

12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You can't answer

13 that question today, is that what you're

14 telling me?

15 A. I don't recall their language, no.

16 Q. And hence you're telling me today

17 as you sit here you cannot answer my

18 question, is that your testimony?

19 A. And hence, I think I just tried

20 to answer your question.

21 Q. Do you use the term and hence

22 often?

23 A. No, you just used it.

24 Q. Do you use it often?

25 A. Never.

323

1 Q. Would you be willing to give me a

2 handwriting exemplar today before we leave?

3 MR. DIAMOND: You can make a

4 request of his counsel.

5 MR. WOOD: I would like to. I

6 would just like to see what maybe some of

7 these examiners would say about it not

8 necessarily casting aspersions on Mr. Thomas,

9 but maybe testing the waters on how reliable

10 a handwriting analysis is. So if you would

11 consider that we will come back to that at

12 the very end.

13 MR. DIAMOND: It is under

14 consideration.

15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Let me ask you to

16 look at page 87. "Dog and pony shows."

17 MR. DIAMOND: Where are you

18 looking?

19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) The first paragraph

20 next to the last sentence "The only danger

21 to" John -- "Patsy and John Ramsey when they

22 put on their dog and pony shows did not come

23 from the interviewers but from themselves."

24 What are you referring to when you -- that

25 you're describing as their dog and pony

324

1 shows?

2 A. My opinion some of these

3 appearances.

4 Q. What appearances?

5 A. For example, May 1 of 1997.

6 Q. What other appearances?

7 A. I don't know; I would have to

8 review their appearances, Mr. Wood.

9 Q. You said arranging an interview

10 with the news organization was a tactic they

11 would use repeatedly in coming years. How

12 many times did they from your understanding

13 use that what you call a tactic before the

14 publication of their book?

15 A. I don't think I make that

16 distinction, do I, before or after the

17 publication of their book?

18 Q. So you were out doing the same

19 thing I guess when you were giving your round

20 of media interviews in connection with the

21 publication of your book; was that a dog and

22 pony show by you?

23 A. They have certainly said worse

24 about me than a dog and pony show.

25 Q. Would you agree you were in the

325

1 dog and pony show business, too, then since

2 that's the way you describe their interviews?

3 A. No. I don't describe mine as dog

4 and pony shows but I have an opinion about

5 what I talk about here.

6 Q. Page 113. Next to the last

7 paragraph "Additional information he shared

8 with us at the interview, which we were later

9 able to confirm, further eliminated him."

10 What are you referring to in terms of the

11 additional information?

12 MR. DIAMOND: Can I, give me a

13 second, please, to get the context?

14 MR. WOOD: Bill McReynolds.

15 THE DEPONENT: Chuck, I need to

16 prior to this answer just 60 seconds to ask

17 you a question.

18 MR. WOOD: Go off the record.

19 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

20 4:07. We're going off the record. This is

21 the end of tape three.

22 (Recess taken from 4:07 p.m. to

23 4:09 p.m.)

24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

25 4:10. We're on the record. This the

326

2 MR. DIAMOND:

11 A.

20 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)

23 A.

327

4 Q.

9 A.

13 Q.

17 A.

18 Q. Yeah, he did. Did you ever see

19 the letter that he had sent to Patsy before

20 his surgery where he talked about how much he

21 enjoyed JonBenet giving him a tour of the

22 house and giving him a special present in the

23 basement of the house a year before,

24 Christmas of 1995; did you ever see that

25 letter?

328

1 A. I'm not sure I ever saw a letter

2 like that.

3 Q. Do you deny seeing a letter like

4 that?

5 A. I'm telling you if the Ramseys had

6 wished to share that with us, I certainly

7 would have looked at it but, as I sit --

8 Q. Are you saying they didn't?

9 A. -- as I sit here right now I

10 don't recall that letter.

11 Q. Analysis proved that Santa Bill

12 didn't write the ransom note. Was he in the

13 elimination category from CBI?

14 A. Again, if you want to go back to

15 that, he was not under consideration.

16 Whether that was elimination or no evidence

17 to indicate, it was my understanding from

18 Trujillo that McReynolds was not a candidate

19 as the ransom note author.

20 Q. How many different examiners looked

21 at his handwriting?

22 A. I think it was just Chet Ubowski

23 at CBI.

24 Q. How about Jessie McReynolds, did

25 he fall under the category as John Ramsey did

329

1 of elimination as the author?

2 A. Same in the interest of your time,

3 same answer as for Bill McReynolds.

4 Q. Again, I guess in the interest of

5 my time, thank you for your concern. When

6 we use the term elimination, you claim not to

7 understand what that means from the CBI and

8 other handwriting experts; is that what you're

9 telling me?

10 Because I'm trying to find out if

11 you've got a report where a CBI person, in

12 this instance Mr. Ubowski I assume, said

13 based on his review of exemplars in the

14 ransom note he was able to eliminate Bill

15 McReynolds as an author of the note. That's

16 what I want to know whether that was done in

17 this case or not. Was it done or not is my

18 question?

19 A. And I'm not real sure of your

20 question, but as far as elimination or no

21 evidence to indicate, I believe Santa Bill

22 and his son fell into that category.

23 Q. But there were examiners that said

24 there was no evidence to indicate that Patsy

25 was the author of the note, true?

330

1 A. The same examiner who also said

2 that didn't disqualify her as possibly being

3 the author of the note.

4 Q. Nor would it disqualify Bill

5 McReynolds in and of itself, true?

6 A. I think it was different examiners

7 and I don't know the standards of their

8 professional examination.

9 Q. You have seen the -- I'm sure you

10 watched some of the appearances by Alex

11 Hunter when he went out on the media, didn't

12 you?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. You've heard Alex Hunter say that

15 the handwriting experts in this case in fact

16 put Patsy Ramsey somewhere around a 4.5 on a

17 one to five scale, five being elimination.

18 You heard district attorney Hunter make that

19 statement, didn't you?

20 A. Not only did I not hear him make

21 that statement, District Attorney Hunter I

22 never know what to believe when he speaks.

23 Q. You don't like Alex Hunter, do

24 you?

25 A. No, sir.

331

1 Q. I mean, that's a pretty damning

2 statement to make about a man to say that

3 you never know what to believe when he speaks

4 because that's a way of saying that he's a

5 liar, not to be trusted, wouldn't you agree?

6 A. I always take at face value what

7 comes out of Mr. Hunter's mouth.

8 Q. Jeff Shapiro was your confidential

9 informant, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you had during your

12 investigation of JonBenet Ramsey's murder a

13 confidential informant who was a tabloid,

14 supermarket tabloid, reporter for Globe,

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you were trying to get

18 Mr. Shapiro to get you information about

19 Mr. Hunter, right?

20 A. He came to us with information.

21 Eye and -- ear and eyewitness information

22 about some of the activities going on in

23 Mr. Hunter's office, yes.

24 Q. Did you give the ransom note to

25 Ann Bardach?

332

1 A. We discussed it. I never gave

2 her a copy of the note or the note.

3 Q. Did you tell her what it said?

4 A. We had conversations which I would

5 describe as almost wholly concerning the

6 politics of the investigation but given some

7 of what was going on, yes, I did discuss

8 content of the ransom note with her.

9 Q. Did you ever meet her in a

10 parking lot?

11 A. I met her at a restaurant.

12 Q. Did you ever meet her in a

13 parking lot, sir?

14 A. I don't know what you're referring

15 to.

16 Q. A parking lot. You asked Jeff

17 Shapiro, for example, one time to meet you in

18 a parking lot, didn't you?

19 A. Maybe I met her in the restaurant

20 parking lot.

21 Q. That's what I was asking. The

22 first time you met her, you didn't want to

23 be seen in a restaurant in Boulder, Colorado

24 with Ann Bardach, did you?

25 A. Went into the restaurant and had a

333

1 meal.

2 Q. How many times did you meet with

3 Ann Bardach?

4 A. I don't know, maybe four or five

5 times.

6 Q. You were scared to death when you

7 were up in Quantico, Mr. Thomas, that you

8 were going to be outted as a source for her

9 Vanity Fair article, weren't you?

10 A. I was concerned because

11 Mr. Shapiro made me aware or at least claimed

12 that what became a big internal affairs witch

13 hunt in fact transpired.

14 Q. You were afraid it was going to

15 come out on CNN that Steve Thomas had given

16 police information to the Vanity Fair writer

17 and embarrass you when you were up there with

18 these FBI people that you were relying on,

19 isn't that true, sir?

20 A. As I said, Mr. Wood, I was

21 concerned about that being made public.

22 Q. You were ready to throw down your

23 badge over it, weren't you? Talked to your

24 wife and said I'm going to walk away from

25 this, I can't take it anymore, that was when

334

1 you were up in Quantico, true?

2 A. I don't know what Mr. Shapiro has

3 obviously told you but I was upset about

4 this, yes.

5 Q. Well, did you take -- did you say

6 that?

7 A. Did I say what?

8 Q. That you were prepared to walk

9 away, you had talked to your wife, you

10 weren't going to take it anymore when you

11 were up there in Quantico and you were afraid

12 that it was going to come out that you had

13 provided this information?

14 A. I had some frustrations throughout

15 this case which eventually led me to do just

16 that and resign.

17 Q. I'm talking about, sir, when you

18 were up there in Quantico and had these

19 conversations with Mr. Shapiro which would

20 have been around September of 1997, a year

21 before you resigned. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many conversations did you

24 have with Mr. Shapiro?

25 A. I'm not sure but I'm confident he

335

1 was tape recording most likely those

2 conversations and that would bear out that

3 conversation.

4 Q. Why are you confident that he was

5 tape recording them?

6 A. It was my impression that he was

7 tape recording a lot of people.

8 Q. Did you ever make a statement to

9 him on the phone, Jeff, do you know what

10 they call the people that chased down

11 Princess Diana, papparazzi, and do you know

12 what they call someone who strangles and

13 kills their child, Poppa Ramsey?

14 A. Never.

15 Q. Never made that statement?

16 A. Never.

17 Q. You deny that under oath?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ever read "Perfect Murder,

20 Perfect Town"?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Any phone conversations involving

23 you that you read and thought were grossly

24 inaccurate?

25 A. Yes.

336

1 Q. Which ones were those?

2 A. One in which Jeff Shapiro,

3 according to Schiller, alleges that I told

4 Shapiro who I thought killed the victim in

5 this case.

6 Q. The one where you said John and

7 Patsy?

8 A. I don't know if you would care to

9 turn to the quote, that's the one I'm

10 recalling.

11 Q. Is that the one?

12 A. I don't know. Let me look at the

13 quote.

14 Q. We'll come back to it later if we

15 need to. Anything else, other than that one?

16 A. There were, I think, a number of

17 factual errors in the book. And if you

18 would like to sit down and go through the

19 book, we can certainly do that.

20 Q. If you're willing at some point

21 and your attorneys will let you do that with

22 me, I assure you that I very much would like

23 to sit down and do that with you. I am

24 very interested in those facts for

25 inaccuracies.

337

1 Anybody besides Carol McKinley,

2 Jeff Shapiro and Ms. Bardach that you

3 discussed this case with while you were still

4 actively involved in this investigation in

5 terms of media individuals?

6 A. That phone would sometimes ring in

7 the situation room 100 times a day. I would

8 pick up the phone but, no, didn't carry on

9 any dialogue or conversation with others.

10 Q. Did you ask Jeff Shapiro to find

11 out who was telling people in Boulder that

12 you were the source for the Vanity Fair

13 article?

14 A. If we had a conversation in which

15 I asked him to do that, I certainly wouldn't

16 deny it.

17 Q. And he told you -- do you recall

18 him telling you it was Bill Wise, Alex

19 Hunter's assistant?

20 A. He may have.

21 Q. And you responded, Those fuckers,

22 he said, almost as if he were catatonic.

23 Then he got louder. Those fuckers, he

24 repeated. Those fuckers, he shouted. Jesus

25 Christ, Jeff, do you know what the fuck will

338

1 happen to me if it comes out on national

2 television that I had anything to do with

3 this fucking article while I'm up here, he

4 asked. I'm up here with the FBI, man. Do

5 you have any idea how fucking embarrassing

6 it's going to be if we're all sitting in a

7 room together with CNN on and that comes over

8 it? Fuck, it's going to make that whole

9 department look like shit. Jesus Christ,

10 Jesus Christ.

11 Did you ever say anything like

12 that to Jeff Shapiro, sir, in a telephone

13 conversation when you were in Quantico?

14 MR. DIAMOND: Are you reading from

15 something you would like to share?

16 MR. WOOD: My notes.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you have a

18 conversation with words to that effect when

19 you talked to Mr. Shapiro about who was

20 saying that you were the source for the

21 Vanity Fair article?

22 A. Again, Mr. Wood, it leads me to

23 believe that he was in fact probably taping

24 these telephone conversations. Yeah, I spoke

25 with him at a period that I was very upset.

339

1 Q. You don't deny making those

2 statements, do you, sir? I'm sorry for the

3 language for the court reporter's sake but

4 it's business and I think everyone understands

5 that. You don't deny making those statements

6 at all, do you, because you --

7 MR. DIAMOND: In those words?

8 MR. WOOD: Oh, yeah. These are

9 quotes pretty much that I was reading.

10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't deny it

11 under oath, do you, sir?

12 A. I don't know if those are quotes

13 or not but I probably had a conversation

14 similar to that.

15 Q. That wasn't the only one like

16 that, was it?

17 A. Like what, Mr. Wood?

18 Q. Where you were so upset about

19 being outted as a source. You got real

20 upset when you thought they were going to ask

21 you to take a polygraph, didn't you?

22 A. I was prepared to come back and

23 when asked admit that I spoke with Ann

24 Bardach.

25 Q. Why don't you just come back and

340

1 admit the truth, sir? Here you are in, at

2 least at the time, what was one of the most,

3 if not the most, high profile murder

4 investigations in the country; an article has

5 come out about that investigation when it's

6 only into its first few months that has an

7 impact on the investigation because it does

8 contain previously undisclosed confidential

9 police information.

10 Did you not think it was the

11 correct and honorable and professional thing

12 to do to simply come back and tell the truth

13 that you had met with her these several times

14 and that you had provided her with

15 information?

16 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.

17 Argumentative. You may answer.

18 A. Did I think it was the honorable

19 thing to come back to Boulder and tell the

20 truth about it?

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yes, sir.

22 A. I had the same question of your

23 clients, yes.

24 Q. I'm not -- let me tell you

25 something, sir, we're not talking about my

341

1 clients right now we're talking about Steve

2 Thomas. You've been doing a lot of talking

3 and a lot of writing about my clients, but

4 now we're talking about you. You were not

5 prepared to come face the truth of what you

6 had done and out yourself as the source and

7 you were scared to death they were going to

8 make you take a polygraph test and everyone

9 was going to know that Steve Thomas had done

10 it and you were going to be fired and you

11 were probably going to be prosecuted. That

12 was your fear, wasn't it, sir, pure and

13 simple one word, disgraced?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You didn't have concerns about

16 being prosecuted by Alex Hunter?

17 A. I was concerned when Shapiro

18 mentioned the conversations he was having with

19 Mr. Hunter according to Shapiro included

20 criminally prosecuting whoever spoke or had

21 spoken with Ann Bardach and I was prepared to

22 come back when asked, as I said, and admit

23 my role.

24 Prior to that happening, they

25 dropped the whole witch hunt inside the

342

1 police department.

2 Q. Did you tell your friends at the

3 FBI that which you were meeting with that,

4 you know, it might impact your professional

5 feelings about my credibility if you learned

6 this information about me but I feel

7 compelled to let you know I've been

8 discussing this case with a tabloid reporter,

9 a FOX news reporter and I have given

10 information to a Vanity Fair reporter?

11 Did you think that might impact

12 your credibility, sir, if people knew that

13 you were doing that?

14 A. I don't know what other people

15 would have thought, Mr. Wood, but I was

16 talking to Mr. Shapiro, The Globe reporter as

17 in an informant capacity. I wasn't sharing

18 information about the case with Carol

19 McKinley. I described that as the politics

20 of the investigation. And regarding Ann

21 Bardach, no, I have not publicly disclosed

22 that.

23 Q. You didn't find yourself the

24 source for a Globe story about the demand by

25 the police to arrest the Ramseys and got

343

1 upset with Jeff Shapiro because he had given

2 that information to his editors that made up

3 that story; you were concerned that you were

4 going to be found to be the source of that

5 story, too?

6 A. I don't know what you're talking

7 about.

8 Q. Did you ever give information to

9 the National Enquirer or Shelly Ross, a

10 former employee of the National Enquirer about

11 the 911 tape in terms of the allegations that

12 Burke Ramsey appeared on it?

13 A. I don't know that I did.

14 Q. Do you deny doing it?

15 A. I like Shelly Ross; I don't know

16 that I discussed with her evidence in the

17 case.

18 Q. Did you discuss it with the

19 National Inquirer?

20 A. No, the only conversations that I

21 believe that I have had with the National

22 Enquirer is when they after I resigned tried

23 to buy a story from me.

24 Q. So after you resigned, you went on

25 in September of 1997 20/20, Shelly Ross as

344

1 the executive producer, right?

2 A. I believe that's right.

3 Q. A couple weeks before that there

4 had been an article in the National Enquirer

5 disclosing the enhanced 911 tape enhancement

6 about Burke Ramsey, right?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Did you tell Shelly Ross about

9 that before you made the appearance on her

10 show, the 911 tape enhancement?

11 A. No, as I said, I don't admit any

12 such thing of sharing that information with

13 Shelly Ross.

14 Q. Do you deny it?

15 A. Yeah, again I didn't share that as

16 I sit here today or have any recollection of

17 sharing that with Shelly Ross.

18 Yeah, as a matter of fact, upon

19 reflection, Mr. Wood, I categorically deny

20 that because I remember at the time the

21 suggestion that I may have been the source of

22 that, and I absolutely was not.

23 Q. And you would take a polygraph on

24 that, wouldn't you?

25 MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going to

345

1 let him answer that question.

2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Would you take a

3 polygraph examination conducted by an

4 independent and impartial examiner on your

5 role as a source for some of these stories

6 while you were actively investigating the

7 JonBenet Ramsey case?

8 MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going to

9 let him answer that question. It's improper.

10 Move forward.

11 MR. WOOD: So on advice of

12 counsel --

13 MR. DIAMOND: Yes. If you have a

14 discovery request, make it of me.

15 MR. WOOD: I'm just asking him if

16 he would be willing to take one.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you ever send

18 a letter formally requesting a polygraph

19 examination of Patsy Ramsey after the April

20 30, 1997 interview?

21 A. I don't believe so.

22 Q. Did you ever make any formal

23 request for a polygraph examination of Patsy

24 Ramsey after the April 30, 1997 interview?

25 A. Certainly we hounded Pete Hofstrom

346

1 about it.

2 Q. I didn't ask you about Pete

3 Hofstrom. I want to know whether you asked

4 Patsy Ramsey or her lawyers formally will you

5 submit to a polygraph examination after April

6 30, 1997?

7 A. There was a chain of command. I

8 didn't deal directly with Patsy Ramsey or her

9 attorneys but I did not personally draft such

10 a letter.

11 Q. Are you aware of any formal demand

12 made by the Boulder authorities on Patsy

13 Ramsey after April 30, 1997, before you left

14 in August 1998, to submit to a polygraph

15 examination after April 30?

16 A. It was very clear that the police

17 department leaned on the DA's office to do

18 exactly that. And the fact that the DA's

19 office chose not to was to the chagrin of

20 the Boulder Police Department.

21 Q. So the answer is you're not aware

22 of any request being made?

23 A. The answer is just what I

24 answered, Mr. Wood.

25 Q. Even after Patsy Ramsey said she

347

1 would take ten of them when you asked her

2 the question hypothetically on April the 30th,

3 1997, right?

4 A. Right what? Was a formal request

5 made?

6 Q. Yeah, when she said -- you asked

7 her hypothetically, if I ask you to take one

8 and she said, I'll take ten of them, do

9 whatever you want, and you're telling me for

10 whatever reasons, politically I guess is your

11 explanation, but whatever the explanation is

12 there was never a demand made on Patsy Ramsey

13 to take a polygraph examination after April

14 30th, 1997, prior to when you left in August

15 of 1998, true?

16 A. I don't know that she was ever

17 sent an engraved invitation to take a

18 polygraph but I think it was pretty clear,

19 Mr. Wood, of the police department's position

20 and through the district attorney's office

21 that the Boulder Police Department wanted John

22 and Patsy Ramsey to submit to law enforcement

23 sponsored polygraph examinations.

24 Q. And do you all usually do those

25 on engraved invitations?

348

1 A. No.

2 Q. Why did you misrepresent the truth

3 then in your book when you said that the

4 book was going to be the inside story

5 answering a wide range of important questions,

6 including why were the Ramseys handled with

7 kid gloves and never asked by law enforcement

8 to take lie detector tests?

9 MR. DIAMOND: I'm going to

10 object --

11 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Were they asked or

12 not asked by law enforcement to take a lie

13 detector test? I'm trying to find out the

14 truth of the investigation.

15 MR. DIAMOND: Do you want to

16 withdraw the first question and have him

17 answer the second question?

18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you understand

19 the question? Here is your book jacket.

20 You saw it before it hit the stands, didn't

21 you?

22 MR. DIAMOND: Which are we

23 answering?

24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) This one right

25 here. Did you see this --

349

1 A. Book jacket, yeah.

2 Q. -- book jacket before it hit the

3 stands?

4 A. Yes, sir, that would be my book

5 jacket --

6 Q. There it is.

7 A. -- before the book went into

8 the --

9 Q. Right.

10 A. Retail store.

11 Q. Let's just try to make this clear.

12 I just want to know what the truth is. Were

13 the Ramseys asked by law enforcement to take

14 lie detector tests or not?

15 A. Yes, and I believe you know that

16 because read the transcript of my interview

17 with your clients from April 30, 1997, and I

18 think even Alex Hunter has said a monkey

19 could understand that polygraph examinations

20 were being requested.

21 Q. Now we believe Alex Hunter on that

22 point; is that what you're telling me?

23 A. As I said, Alex Hunter says a lot

24 of things but I happen to agree with his

25 assessment that is borne out by the

350

1 transcript of that interview.

2 Q. Did you ever seek to interview the

3 Richardson twins who lived with Melody

4 Stanton?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Why not?

7 A. Because I was unaware of these

8 people.

9 Q. Did anybody in the Boulder Police

10 Department make an attempt, to your knowledge,

11 to interview the two 30-year old twins, the

12 Richardson twins, that lived with Melody

13 Stanton?

14 A. Not that I'm aware of.

15 Q. How about the two friends of Fleet

16 White that were there, did you all ever get

17 any non- testimonial evidence from those two

18 individuals?

19 A. Which two friends are you

20 referring to?

21 Q. The ones that were with him on

22 Christmas and were at the Ramseys on I

23 believe the party of the 23rd; do you know

24 who I'm talking about?

25 A. Mr. Fleet White's house guests at

351

1 the time?

2 Q. Yes. His friends that were house

3 guests, did you all ever get any

4 non-testimonial evidence, hair, DNA,

5 handwriting from Mr. Cox or Mr. Gaston?

6 A. I believe Detective Harmer received

7 that assignment and made attempts to conduct

8 that investigation. And I'm not sure whether

9 or not she was successful in those attempts.

10 Q. On page 270 of your book. Chief

11 Beckner started talking about a successful

12 Title-3 electronic surveillance down in

13 Florida where the police had recorded the

14 mother saying 'The baby is dead and buried

15 ... because you did it' and the father

16 replied 'I wish I hadn't harmed her -- it

17 was the cocaine', end quote. "I considered

18 the irony of Beckner discussing a Title-3

19 that worked damned well in Florida when he

20 had been a part of the scandal-frightened

21 leadership that wouldn't let us try the same

22 tactic."

23 Have I read that correctly?

24 A. I believe so.

25 Q. That was the Aisenberg case,

352

1 wasn't it, Mr. Thomas?

2 A. That is the case that is being

3 referred to here, yes.

4 Q. Right. You understand that charge

5 was dismissed against the family because the

6 transcripts of the tapes were not consistent

7 with the representations made as to the

8 content by the police?

9 A. I'm not familiar with that.

10 Q. You hadn't tried to study what

11 happened to the Aisenberg case at all?

12 A. No, as we sit here today I don't

13 know the conclusion of the Aisenberg case.

14 Q. I would suggest it would be

15 interesting for you to look into it in your

16 spare time. Clearly you're going to tell me

17 that the Boulder Police Department thoroughly

18 investigated, John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey,

19 right?

20 A. Is that a question?

21 Q. Yes. Clearly you're going to tell

22 me that they thoroughly investigated, the

23 Boulder Police Department thoroughly

24 investigated John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey?

25 MR. DIAMOND: How do you know

353

1 what he is going to tell you unless you ask

2 him?

3 MR. WOOD: I just did.

4 MR. DIAMOND: No.

5 MR. WOOD: If he wants to

6 disagree with me he can.

7 MR. DIAMOND: You asked him

8 whether --

9 MR. WOOD: I'm not asking you.

10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Will you answer my

11 question? Did you understand? I will be

12 glad to make it clear.

13 MR. DIAMOND: Why don't you ask

14 him non- argumentative questions.

15 MR. WOOD: Why don't you ask him

16 questions --

17 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.

18 MR. WOOD: -- when you want to.

19 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.

20 Argumentative.

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Are you going to

22 answer my question?

23 MR. DIAMOND: If you can answer

24 that question.

25 A. It was phrased as a statement but

354

1 I think I understand the question.

2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Thank you.

3 A. Given the God almighty obstacles

4 that we were up against, we tried to

5 investigate them as thoroughly as we could as

6 paper tigers.

7 Q. When you were under threat of

8 lawsuit, the first thing you did was hired a

9 PR person, Sherill Wisinhunt (sic) and you

10 hired lawyers, right?

11 A. No, I didn't hire Sherill

12 Whisenand.

13 Q. Whisenand, I'm sorry.

14 A. She was a friend of mine long

15 before this who agreed to take these calls

16 for me and, having been charged with

17 something and as a defendant in a case, I

18 thought it was necessarily prudent to retain

19 an attorney.

20 Q. Page 284 -- let me ask you before

21 I go there, during Mr. Foster's presentation,

22 did he talk to you all about the Dirty Harry

23 movie and the references in the ransom note

24 to it by talking about the fact that the

25 Ramseys' favorite movie was Animal House and

355

1 there was a scene in Animal House where

2 somebody drove a car through the campus and

3 hit a fire hydrant and there was a similar

4 scene in Dirty Harry like that. Do you

5 recall that?

6 A. I recall something vaguely similar

7 to that where he was discussing events out of

8 motion pictures.

9 Q. Didn't you think that was

10 borderline on the absurd, sir, to tie Dirty

11 Harry to the Ramseys because they liked the

12 movie Animal House and it had a scene in it

13 where somebody ran into a fire hydrant?

14 Didn't you think that was literally absurd or

15 did you think that was good forensic testing?

16 A. Taken out of context as you

17 represent it today it --

18 Q. Put it into context, if you would,

19 please.

20 MR. DIAMOND: Let him finish his

21 answer, please. Go ahead.

22 A. Taken out of context as you

23 represented today, that may seem odd. But at

24 the time, it was a part of his presentation.

25 And I don't recall my observation being how

356

1 you described it as fantastic or incredible

2 or whatever term you used.

3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Was there a

4 transcript from a tape recording of the first

5 interview of Jackie Dilson, because you made

6 reference that I should look at the

7 transcript, that tells me that maybe it was

8 recorded and it was transcribed?

9 A. I would -- it was Detective Gosage

10 and my policy and practice in this case to

11 try and record witness interviews when

12 feasible and we may very well have taken a

13 tape recorder -- as a matter of fact, I

14 would have to answer, yes, I believe we did

15 record and have transcribed that interview.

16 Q. Page 286, you make reference to a

17 red turtleneck being stripped off of JonBenet

18 when it got wet from I guess her bed

19 wetting.

20 MR. DIAMOND: Where are you?

21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Third paragraph

22 down "I concluded the little girl had worn

23 the red turtleneck to bed, as her mother

24 originally said, and that it was stripped off

25 when it got wet." Are you talking about wet

357

1 from urine?

2 A. In this hypothesis we're talking

3 about, yes.

4 Q. Did you ever have or the Boulder

5 Police Department to your knowledge ever have

6 the red turtleneck found in the bathroom

7 tested forensically to determine if it had

8 any type of trace evidence or other evidence

9 on it?

10 A. Again, it sounds like you know

11 otherwise but I was under the impression from

12 Trujillo that there wasn't a presumptive test

13 for urine.

14 Q. Did anybody tell you that they

15 found the red turtleneck and that it was wet?

16 A. No, this is what I am surmising

17 in the hypothesis.

18 Q. Was the red turtleneck taken into

19 evidence?

20 A. I certainly believe it was.

21 Q. Did it have any type of urine

22 stain on it?

23 A. Not that I'm aware of. I never

24 have looked at it personally.

25 Q. Where did you get the statement

358

1 that it got wet; did you just manufacture

2 that out of whole cloth?

3 A. No, I'm suggesting that that was a

4 reasonable explanation for the final resting

5 place of this red turtleneck of which she may

6 have indeed worn home.

7 Q. But you had no evidence to support

8 that statement about the turtleneck being wet,

9 true?

10 A. No, I don't know that it was

11 urine stained.

12 Q. Or wet?

13 A. Or wet.

14 Q. Was there any test done on the

15 duct tape that would establish the imprint of

16 JonBenet's lip prints on that tape?

17 A. Was there any test that would

18 establish that?

19 Q. Did you all to your knowledge, did

20 the Boulder Police Department conduct any test

21 that would establish that the duct tape that

22 was pulled off of her mouth by John Ramsey

23 that was then picked up by Fleet White was

24 found somehow to contain a perfect set of

25 JonBenet's lip prints, was any test performed

359

1 that made that finding?

2 A. There was an examination apparently

3 done at some point which was reported back to

4 a detective briefing at which I was present

5 and I believe that was Wickman or Trujillo

6 that shared that information.

7 Q. Who conducted that examination?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Was it an expert of some type?

10 A. I don't know that there is such a

11 thing as an expert examination and there is

12 no testing that I'm aware of. I think

13 that's more common sense observation.

14 Q. Did you ever find the roll of

15 duct tape because the duct tape was torn on

16 both ends, wasn't it?

17 A. We never found the roll of duct

18 tape to source to the duct tape that was

19 covering the victim's mouth.

20 Q. And you didn't find any prior

21 application of this type of duct tape in the

22 house, did you?

23 A. Similar, but I don't know that we

24 ever found a match.

25 Q. Actually what you said was similar

360

1 was just one piece that was found on a

2 painting, right, and it was found not to be

3 in fact from the same --

4 A. Roll, that's right.

5 Q. -- from the roll; is that right?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. Yeah. And did you ever find cord

8 in the house? One end of the cord was, as

9 I understand it, was cut. The other end was

10 sealed for the garrote; is that right?

11 A. You know, I'm not going to say

12 that as I sit here today. I would have to

13 review --

14 Q. Forget that, don't worry about

15 that. Did you ever find any cord in the

16 house from which the garrote or the rope that

17 tied her hands together was from? Did you

18 ever find that?

19 A. No. As far as I know, the cord

20 used on the victim was never sourced to

21 anything in the house.

22 MR. DIAMOND: If this is a good

23 point, before you change subjects?

24 MR. WOOD: Let me see how much

25 time I've got. Let me see.

361

1 MR. RAWLS: You have something

2 about one ten left.

3 MR. WOOD: Give me about two

4 minutes, let me just run through a couple

5 other things real quick.

6 MR. DIAMOND: You have an hour.

7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) There was some

8 paint --

9 MR. DIAMOND: There's one hour

10 left.

11 MR. WOOD: I do hope you'll give

12 me some consideration on a little extension

13 if we can finish up and I don't have to take

14 it up with the court.

15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) The garrote was

16 made out of a paint brush that was believed

17 to be a paint brush in a paint tray down in

18 the basement, right?

19 A. That's my understanding.

20 Q. And there was the tip end with

21 the brush found in the paint tray, right?

22 A. No, it's my understanding the

23 brush end --

24 Q. The brush end was found, the tip

25 end was broken off and never found, right?

362

1 A. Yeah, it's my understanding that

2 the handled shaft was fashioned into the

3 garrote handle. And Lou Smit told me that

4 there was a missing piece that has been

5 unaccounted for.

6 Q. Did you ever find any evidence to

7 dispute what Mr. Smit told you in that

8 regard?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You've already told me there were

11 the missing pages from the pad, right?

12 A. If we're talking about pages 17

13 through 25, if memory serves, yes, those were

14 unaccounted for.

15 Q. And there was some bleed-through

16 on what has been referred to as the practice

17 ransom note, right?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Was there any bleed through on

20 what -- on the ransom note itself?

21 A. Well, 17 through 25 missing, 26

22 with bleed-through on it presumably from 25.

23 And if memory serves, 27 started the ransom

24 note so you had some, I think, bleed-through

25 from the practice note.

363

1 Q. The practice note consisted of

2 Mr. -- why don't you tell me what was on the

3 ransom note, the practice ransom note, as has

4 been described?

5 A. I believe that said Mr. And Mrs.,

6 the what looked like the down stroke of an R

7 which could have been mistaken for an I.

8 Q. Did any of the examiners compare

9 that handwriting to the ransom note or was

10 that simply not sufficient to draw any

11 conclusions about the commonality of

12 authorship?

13 A. I believe that the ink was

14 matched.

15 Q. The what, the ink?

16 A. The ink from the practice note to

17 the ransom note was matched.

18 Q. In what way?

19 A. The same pen wrote the practice

20 note that wrote the ransom note.

21 Q. There were three pens. Did they

22 determine which of the pens wrote the

23 practice note and the ransom note?

24 A. The same pen.

25 Q. And that was a consistent or was

364

1 that a finding by forensically of an absolute

2 match between pen and ink?

3 A. It's my understanding that the

4 Secret Service matched the ink from practice

5 note to the ransom note.

6 Q. Pens were in plain view?

7 A. You're talking pens plural. I'm

8 talking about the pen that wrote --

9 Q. The pen, that was in a -- it was

10 in plain view?

11 A. In a cup in the kitchen is my

12 understanding.

13 Q. Pad was in plain view, given

14 voluntarily by John Ramsey to the police?

15 A. I don't know about plain view, I

16 wasn't there. But it's my understanding that

17 he produced that from a countertop area on

18 the first floor.

19 MR. WOOD: Why don't we take that

20 break now.

21 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

22 4:47. We're going off the record.

23 (Recess taken from 4:47 p.m. to

24 4:57 p.m.)

25 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

365

1 4:57. We're back on the record.

2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, if you

3 would look at page 152 of your book. Next

4 to the last paragraph, it ends "'I believe

5 she wrote it.'.

6 Ubowski had recently told one

7 detective "'I believe she wrote it.'" Who

8 was --

9 A. Yeah, may I read the paragraph?

10 Q. Yeah, I want to find out who that

11 detective is.

12 A. I believe that's Trujillo and

13 Wickman who made that statement, specifically

14 Wickman, which John Eller certainly also

15 heard.

16 Q. Anybody else?

17 A. I think this was Tom Koby. This

18 was that meeting I described in a vehicle at

19 the parking lot of the shopping mall, Koby,

20 Eller, Wickman, Trujillo, and I don't know

21 whether or not that's on tape.

22 Q. But isn't the bottom line that

23 Chet Ubowski made it very clear that,

24 whatever his beliefs were, he was not in a

25 position from his standpoint to state under

366

1 oath that Patsy Ramsey was the author within

2 any degree of certainty; isn't that what he

3 told you, sir?

4 A. No, the conduit was Wickman who

5 said something very similar to that that he

6 couldn't get on the stand and testify to it.

7 Q. And that never changed while you

8 were there, did it, that Ubowski would not

9 get on the stand and testify to it, right?

10 A. Yeah, as far as I know Ubowski

11 never took the stand and testified to it.

12 Q. And it was always your

13 understanding that he said that he was not in

14 a position to do so from an opinion

15 standpoint; isn't that true?

16 A. To take the stand?

17 Q. He would not go under oath and

18 testify that Patsy Ramsey within reasonable

19 certainty was the author of the note?

20 A. Well, the reasonable certainty I

21 recall I think it was Mr. Ubowski speaking at

22 the VIP presentation and I would like to see

23 a transcript of that because I thought --

24 Q. I thought maybe --

25 A. -- his answer or his remarks were

367

1 fairly strong there. But no, he was

2 obviously not in a position to take the stand

3 and make that identification in court.

4 Q. Am I right, maybe I went over

5 this and I apologize, did Mr. Ubowski in his

6 report say "There is evidence which indicates

7 that the ransom note may have been written by

8 Patsy Ramsey but the evidence falls short of

9 that necessary to support a definite

10 conclusion." That's Mr. Ubowski's opinion,

11 right?

12 A. That's his formal report opinion.

13 Q. Did you ever know that opinion to

14 change before August of 1998 when you left?

15 A. To get stronger or weaker?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Mr. Speckin we've been over,

19 although do you recall Mr. Speckin stating

20 that, When I compare the handwriting habits

21 of Patsy Ramsey with those presented in

22 the --

23 A. Mr. Wood, bring me to where you

24 are. I'm lost, sir.

25 Q. I'm sorry, I'm in my notes. I'm

368

1 not in the book.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. Do you recall Mr. Speckin finding

4 -- we talked about he found no evidence that

5 Patsy Ramsey disguised her handwriting

6 exemplars. I didn't want to go over this

7 part and I wanted to.

8 Mr. Speckin stated, When I compare

9 the handwriting habits of Patsy Ramsey with

10 those contained in the questioned ransom note,

11 there exists agreement to the extent that

12 some of her individual letter formations and

13 letter combinations do appear in the ransom

14 note. When this agreement is weighed against

15 the number type and consistency of the

16 differences present, I am unable to identify

17 Patsy Ramsey as the author of the questioned

18 ransom note with any degree of certainty. I

19 am, however, unable to eliminate her as the

20 author.

21 Does that sound correct in terms

22 of what Mr. Speckin's formal report was?

23 A. If that's what you're reading

24 from, that's consistent with my recollection.

25 He did have other comments and information as

369

1 well.

2 Q. Lloyd Cunningham and Howard Ryle

3 were obviously employed by the Ramsey family,

4 true?

5 A. That was my belief.

6 Q. You knew that Lloyd Cunningham had

7 in fact been the CBI examiner that had

8 certified Chet Ubowski?

9 A. No, but I do recall him saying he

10 had done some training or had some capacity

11 in that effect with Mr. Ubowski.

12 Q. How about Howard Ryle, did you

13 know him to be formerly with the CBI?

14 A. I didn't know he was previously

15 with the CBI.

16 Q. Did?

17 A. Did not.

18 Q. I'm just trying -- I may be

19 confused about which one was with the CBI or

20 taught Mr. Ubowski?

21 A. One was with, I think, previously

22 the San Francisco PD and you may be correct;

23 the other one may have been with CBI.

24 Q. Did you all conclude that there

25 were references in the ransom note from Dirty

370

1 Harry, Speed, the movie Ransom, the movie

2 Nick of Time and Ruthless People?

3 A. That wasn't my conclusion. I

4 think it was Lou Smit that brought that to

5 the attention of several, and I don't know

6 that those were verbatim quotes that matched

7 the ransom note.

8 Q. Were you familiar -- well, was

9 that investigated by the Boulder Police

10 Department in terms of trying to find out

11 from movie rental records whether the Ramseys

12 had ever seen those movies?

13 A. Unfortunately, one of the obstacles

14 we ran into with movie rental records was

15 after the Thomas Hill, Anita, I can't

16 remember her last name, hearings. Movie

17 records are very, very restricted and without

18 warrants or subpoenas or something above and

19 beyond, we couldn't just go to the video

20 store and check rental history.

21 Q. Didn't the Ramseys give you almost

22 100 releases to get information?

23 A. I believe after I left.

24 Q. But nonetheless, you believe they

25 did that?

371

1 A. I have heard, I think even you

2 say that after -- or at a point in time

3 after which I left the investigation, I was

4 of the impression that after Kane came on

5 board, they gave a number of consent

6 releases.

7 Q. They also provided a considerable

8 amount of historical writings from Patsy

9 Ramsey, didn't they, in addition to the five

10 exemplars?

11 A. I don't know if those were -- if

12 those were seized by crime scene search

13 warrant or if those were surrendered.

14 Q. I think we went over Mr. Dusak,

15 bear with me again, the Secret Service

16 document examiner found a lack of indications

17 and said that a study and comparison of the

18 questioned and specimened writings submitted

19 has resulted in the conclusion that there is

20 no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey

21 executed any of the questioned material

22 appearing on the ransom note. Is that

23 consistent with your recollection of

24 Mr. Dusak's conclusion?

25 A. If you're reading verbatim, I

372

1 won't --

2 Q. I'm asking you if it's consistent

3 with your recollection. I'm not representing

4 anything other than my notes here on it.

5 A. Yes, but he said many other

6 things, too.

7 Q. But that portion is certainly

8 consistent with your recollection, true?

9 A. As I sit here today, yes.

10 Q. Howard Ryle put his opinion,

11 another Ramsey expert who was, I believe, the

12 former CBI document examiner, but regardless

13 of whether I'm right about that or not,

14 Mr. Ryle put his opinion at between probably

15 not and elimination of Patsy Ramsey as author

16 of the ransom note, further stating that he

17 believes that the writer could be identified

18 if historical writing was found. Is that

19 consistent with your recollection of

20 Mr. Ryle's opinions?

21 A. You know what, I don't know that

22 the Ramsey, attorneys or the Ramseys -- or at

23 least I never saw Mr. Ryle's report.

24 Q. You weren't part of the

25 presentation that Mr. Ryle and Mr. Cunningham

373

1 made for Michael Kane and the DAs?

2 A. I was present at a presentation

3 they made. Michael Kane was not yet on the

4 case and I think this was in May of '97.

5 Q. May of '97 was the presentation

6 that Ryle and Cunningham made, you did --

7 A. I did observe that.

8 Q. What I have read to you does that

9 seem, though, clearly to be consistent with

10 your recollection about what Mr. Ryle and

11 Mr. Cunningham concluded?

12 A. One or the other sounds accurate.

13 Q. I want to show you and get the

14 benefit of my elaborate markings.

15 MR. WOOD: Why don't we mark this

16 as Defendants' 3.

17 (Exhibit-3 was marked.)

18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I don't have

19 copies, I apologize. I'll give you a clean

20 copy of that, too, if you don't mind instead

21 of putting my stuff on it?

22 MR. DIAMOND: Do you have a clean

23 copy?

24 MR. WOOD: No, that's the only

25 one I've got. I told Sean I didn't want to

374

1 check bags so I didn't bring a bunch of

2 copies.

3 (Pause.)

4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you seen that

5 article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, before

6 I just showed it to you today?

7 A. No, as I've said, I wasn't aware

8 that Mr. Ubowski was retracting any statements

9 prior to you're making me aware of that

10 today.

11 Q. If this is correct Mr. Ubowski is

12 in fact stating on April 10, 2000 that he

13 denies saying that Patsy Ramsey wrote the

14 note and that he, the claim that 24 of the

15 alphabet's 26 letters looked like -- looked

16 as if they had been written by Patsy is

17 denied as the lab does not quantify like

18 that? You have never heard those statements

19 made by the CBI before I showed you this

20 KCNC report today?

21 A. No, as I have said, no.

22 Q. I forgot to ask you how many

23 lectures have you given consistent with this

24 web page?

25 A. Very few, maybe three or four.

375

1 Q. Do you have any lined up in the

2 future?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Could you try and tell me where

5 the three or four were, just the names of

6 the cities?

7 A. Indianapolis, New Orleans, Snowmass,

8 Colorado.

9 Q. And what is coming up?

10 A. Ohio. And I think there is one

11 after the first of the year. Ohio might be

12 after the first of the year. Minnesota later

13 this year.

14 Q. Dr. Wecht says, Steve Thomas knows

15 so much about the murder of JonBenet Ramsey

16 he doesn't mince words.

17 Do you believe that's an accurate

18 description of you?

19 A. That's Dr. Wecht's description of

20 me.

21 Q. I'm asking you if you think it's

22 accurate, that you don't mince words?

23 A. It depends on the context.

24 Q. Didn't it bother you a little bit

25 about putting Don Foster's name on this in

376

1 light of the letter that we looked at today

2 that you've never even seen the second and

3 third pages of --

4 A. No.

5 Q. -- Mr. Thomas?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you still think he's the best

8 linguistic expert in the country?

9 A. He still does work for law

10 enforcement and seems to be highly regarded

11 and I certainly respect Dr. Foster.

12 Q. Did you all send that letter to

13 the FBI and let them know about what

14 Mr. Foster had said to Patsy Ramsey?

15 A. What letter is that?

16 Q. The letter that I just showed you

17 today that you had only seen the first page

18 of?

19 A. I did not.

20 Q. Page 75 of your book. The second

21 paragraph "The FBI would tell us that the

22 disposal of the body of JonBenet had the

23 classic elements of a staged crime, complete

24 with a Hollywoodized ransom note." Was there

25 any specific member of the FBI that you

377

1 attribute that statement to?

2 A. The meeting in I believe it was

3 August or September of 1997.

4 Q. Quantico?

5 A. In Quantico at a big, many, many

6 people in the room.

7 Q. If I hear you throughout this

8 testimony and it seems to me and from your

9 book, the FBI was heavily involved in this

10 investigation from early on; wouldn't you

11 agree?

12 A. They were very supportive of us

13 and involved, yes.

14 Q. Yeah, I mean, they were heavily

15 involved for a case that really was not a

16 federal jurisdiction case, a murder?

17 A. Arguably.

18 Q. I mean when I was out there

19 saying, you know, I didn't think the FBI is

20 objective because they've been involved in

21 this case to a significant amount, whether

22 you agree or not with my objectivity

23 conclusion, I was right about the fact that

24 the FBI had been significantly involved in

25 the case, wasn't I?

378

1 A. For the record I don't agree with

2 the objectivity conclusion but, yeah, they

3 were significantly involved in the case.

4 Q. It seems like from what you're

5 telling me that they were of the mind that

6 you were, that Patsy Ramsey they thought was

7 involved in the death of her daughter?

8 A. That certainly seemed to be my

9 impression.

10 Q. So whether that was an objective

11 decision by then I certainly was right to

12 have some concerns about whether or not they

13 had formed such a conclusion before I

14 submitted John or Patsy to the FBI

15 examination, wasn't I?

16 A. Well, twofold. One, I don't think

17 they would have -- I don't think there was

18 anything inappropriate with their polygraph

19 unit or that they would have conspired in any

20 way with their polygraphers.

21 Q. I also comment to you the ruse

22 interview that was attempted on Richard Jewell

23 by the FBI might be enlightening about FBI

24 tactics, legal and illegal. Do you agree

25 that you all investigated the hell out of

379

1 Bill McReynolds?

2 A. Bill McReynolds was, yes, very

3 scrutinized in this investigation, not just by

4 us but I believe by the DA's people as well.

5 Q. On page 115. Right about here

6 down the second paragraph, there was somebody

7 that was filing late reports. Was that

8 Trujillo?

9 A. Let me look real quick.

10 Q. A full year had passed before he

11 completed his report of the initial Atlanta

12 trip?

13 A. Yeah, help me out with the

14 question.

15 Q. The question is coming up.

16 "Trujillo and Arndt still were not speaking,

17 and the sergeant who reported the undisturbed

18 snow now filed an amended report." Who was

19 that sergeant?

20 A. That was Sergeant Reichenbach.

21 Q. And "The first officer was having

22 difficulty in recollecting certain events."

23 What officer was that?

24 A. That was officer French.

25 Q. And "Then Arndt began amending her

380

1 reports, too"; is that true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When was the initial Atlanta trip?

4 A. I believe that was January 1st

5 through 5th of 1997.

6 Q. Page 160, the last paragraph.

7 "Then the defense attorneys were allowed

8 inside the Boulder Police Department to

9 examine the actual ligature and garrote that

10 killed JonBenet." Have I read that

11 correctly?

12 MR. DIAMOND: Can I just -- I

13 just want to get the context.

14 MR. WOOD: Last paragraph.

15 MR. DIAMOND: I see where it is.

16 I just want to --

17 A. I missed it; we're on 160 on the

18 bottom of the page?

19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Bottom paragraph,

20 "Then the defense attorneys were allowed

21 inside the Boulder Police Department to

22 examine the actual ligature and garrote that

23 killed JonBenet." Have I read that

24 correctly?

25 A. Yes.

381

1 Q. "I watched sick inside, and

2 Sergent Wickman bellowed in protest 'You're

3 giving the fucking murder weapon to the

4 suspects.'" Have I read that correctly?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are those statements true and

7 accurate?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. 154, right here, second blocked

10 out, second paragraph, "Experts engaged by the

11 police concluded there was no stun gun

12 involved at all, but the DA's team never

13 relinquished their claim that such weapon an

14 exotic weapon was used to subdue JonBenet."

15 Have I read that correctly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who were the experts engaged by

18 the police that you're referring; would you

19 identify those for me?

20 A. I know at least one was Dr.

21 Werner Spitz, and Detective Trujillo would be

22 able to identify additional.

23 Q. Did any of those -- any police

24 department consultants discuss at either of

25 the presentations in terms of what they

382

1 thought about stun guns whether there was

2 consistency. For example, Dr. Doberson?

3 A. I'm sorry, run it back by me,

4 Mr. Wood.

5 Q. Was Dr. Deters -- the Larimer

6 County coroner involved in the investigation

7 by the Boulder Police Department?

8 A. No, I'm not familiar with that

9 name.

10 Q. How about Sue Kitchens of the CBI?

11 A. I am familiar with her name, but

12 I do not know what extent she may have been

13 involved in the investigation.

14 Q. How about Dr. Doberson?

15 A. I believe Trujillo and Wickman

16 initially visited Dobersen on behalf of the

17 police. But that was later followed up by

18 investigators Smit and Ainsworth.

19 Q. Dr. Doberson who I think you have

20 a great deal of respect for?

21 A. I don't know Dr. Doberson.

22 Q. Do you recognize him, though, to

23 be respected in the law enforcement community

24 in Colorado?

25 A. I have no opinion. I don't know

383

1 anything about Dr. Doberson.

2 Q. Do you know that he has stated

3 within reasonable medical certainty that the

4 marks on JonBenet's face and back were caused

5 by a stun gun. Are you aware of that?

6 A. Well, if you're telling me that's

7 true --

8 Q. I'm just asking if you're aware of

9 it. You said --

10 A. I saw that on --

11 Q. -- you watched some of the stuff.

12 I'm just asking if that's what he said there?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. Did you watch the Tracy Mills

15 documentary, two?

16 A. The second one, two?

17 Q. Yeah.

18 A. Two, as in the number two?

19 Q. Yeah, the second, there was one

20 back a couple years ago, it's one that came

21 out in the last several months, haven't

22 seen --

23 A. No, I haven't seen that.

24 Q. So you don't know what Dr.

25 Doberson said in that, do you?

384

1 A. No.

2 Q. But he wasn't employed by the

3 Boulder Police Department, among other things,

4 to look at the stun gun issue, true?

5 A. I don't know that he was employed

6 but they went to him. Trujillo and Wickman

7 I know did.

8 Q. What did the Boulder Police

9 Department conclude caused these marks found

10 on JonBenet Ramsey's back?

11 MR. DIAMOND: Do you want to

12 identify what you're putting in front of him

13 just for --

14 MR. WOOD: I'm going to mark it

15 and I'll do it by copy. I don't want to

16 mark on this color copy but this will be

17 Defendants' 4.

18 MR. DIAMOND: Will you identify

19 what it is for the record?

20 MR. WOOD: It's an autopsy

21 photograph of JonBenet Ramsey.

22 MR. DIAMOND: Does it have a

23 number on it or something?

24 MR. WOOD: I just put a number on

25 it, a 4 just so I can copy it and mark it

385

1 later. If you'll just hang on to it. I

2 don't want you to be flipping through there.

3 There is one picture I am going to ask him

4 about in a moment.

5 MR. DIAMOND: Yeah.

6 (Exhibit-4 and Exhibit-5 marked.)

7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What did the

8 Boulder Police Department determine caused

9 those marks on JonBenet Ramsey's back as

10 shown on Defendants' Exhibit 4?

11 A. I don't know that the Boulder

12 Police Department as an entity formed a

13 consensus opinion, but relying on the experts

14 in this case, and Detective Trujillo

15 specifically who was assigned to the stun gun

16 investigation told us and I remember seeing

17 it that Werner Spitz concluded, I believe,

18 what was believed to be stun gun marks may

19 have been a patterned object, if I recall

20 correctly, or I think another explanation was

21 on her back lying on some sort of object.

22 Q. That was Dr. Spitz only?

23 A. Well, Dr. Spitz completed a report

24 on that. I think Dr. Lee had some opinion

25 on it. Certainly Trujillo filed information

386

1 about that.

2 Q. I'm going to show you defense

3 Exhibit Number 5, which two photos, one is

4 obviously Number 4 and then 5 is a picture

5 of JonBenet's side of her face. There were

6 two marks on her face. The marks on her

7 face and the marks on her back were the same

8 distance apart, right?

9 A. I don't know that those were

10 identical. I have heard --

11 Q. Do you deny that?

12 A. I have heard Mr. Smit say that

13 they were identical. I have heard Trujillo

14 say they're not.

15 Q. That the marks were not --

16 shouldn't one just measure this, sir?

17 A. Unfortunately you would have to, I

18 think, triangulate it off of a photo because

19 they weren't measured, my understanding, at

20 autopsy.

21 Q. Do you choose to believe Dr. --

22 Mr. Smit or Mr. Trujillo in terms of that

23 issue or do you just not have a position one

24 way or the other in terms of the distance

25 part of the two set matched pairs?

387

1 A. I don't believe necessarily either

2 of them. But I have heard Mr. Smit and

3 Mr. Trujillo had conflicting measurements on

4 that picture.

5 Q. But one thing for sure, you

6 believe, I think you would say and have said

7 before, that if a stun gun was used on

8 JonBenet that that is significant evidence

9 that would point away from a family member or

10 parent, right?

11 A. I don't know where I have said

12 that.

13 Q. You have never said that?

14 A. I don't know where I have said

15 that, Mr. Wood.

16 Q. Do you deny that?

17 A. Refresh my memory. Where do you

18 think I have said that?

19 Q. Do you deny that or is that

20 accurate?

21 A. I think, and for the record let

22 me just say, one other expert that I know

23 the Boulder Police Department consulted were I

24 think stun gun reps, manufacturers or people

25 in the stun gun industry.

388

1 Q. Do you know their names?

2 A. I don't. I think somebody from

3 Air Tazer.

4 Q. Were there reports filed?

5 A. There certainly should be. As far

6 as do I deny -- well, let me put my answer

7 this way. I would agree to an extent that

8 it may be or would be less likely that a

9 parent would be involved in the stun gunning

10 of a child. Maybe I'm naive in that

11 thinking, as the FBI agents told us they have

12 seen children murdered in the most horrendous

13 of ways, but I won't dispute you on that

14 point today.

15 Q. You would tell me, too, that if

16 JonBenet Ramsey was alive when she was

17 strangled and alive when she was molested and

18 that there is evidence of a struggle in her

19 neck area, that if you assume those facts to

20 be true, that that would be inconsistent with

21 staging of a crime, correct?

22 A. I don't agree with the premise.

23 I agree with the expert Dr. Spitz' conclusion

24 on that.

25 Q. I'm asking you, though, sir.

389

1 You're talking about staging the crime. If

2 JonBenet were struggling to try to get the

3 garrote loose, that certainly would be

4 inconsistent with the parent staging a crime

5 thinking her child was dead, true?

6 A. Mr. Smit did present to the police

7 department that theory.

8 Q. But I'm not asking about Mr. Smit

9 with all due respect.

10 A. I'm trying to answer the question.

11 Q. I'm asking you about the concept

12 itself. If the child is found to be

13 struggling to get at the garrote, that would

14 be totally inconsistent with the idea of

15 staging by a parent who thought the child was

16 dead. I mean, that's just one and one

17 equals two, doesn't it, sir?

18 A. Two different concepts. I

19 disagree. I think that, as I've have said,

20 I think parents have killed their children in

21 a variety of ways.

22 Q. I'm talking about staging where

23 you think your child is dead or your child

24 is dead and you're trying to stage a crime

25 scene. After the fact that's staging, right,

390

1 to make it look like something that it's not,

2 true?

3 A. Staging, my understanding is just

4 that, recreating or messing with a crime

5 scene to divert attention, making it appear

6 something that it's not.

7 Q. Then if you've got a child that

8 is trying to pull at the garrote, that would

9 not be consistent at all with the parent

10 placing a garrote and tightening it around

11 the child's neck to make it appear that the

12 child was strangled as part of staging a

13 crime, would it, sir, can't you --

14 A. No.

15 Q. -- acknowledge that --

16 A. I'm not going to go along with

17 that and agree to it.

18 Q. Why not?

19 A. I just don't agree with it.

20 Q. So Patsy Ramsey theoretically had

21 JonBenet Ramsey there pulling at this garrote

22 around her neck, scratching at it and you

23 still believe that the garrote would have

24 been placed there by Patsy Ramsey to stage

25 the crime; is that what your testimony is?

391

1 A. If that's what you're telling me,

2 I won't dispute that's what happened.

3 Q. Do you believe that is what

4 happened?

5 A. No. I've offered a hypothesis

6 that I believe was consistent with the

7 evidence as I knew it, that possibly what

8 happened.

9 Q. Let me ask you something about the

10 use of the word hypothesis. Where did you

11 come up with that word? You use it in

12 almost every interview.

13 A. I don't know, in school somewhere.

14 Q. As it applies to your book?

15 A. No, you asked me where I learned

16 the word hypothesis.

17 Q. Are you prepared to state as a

18 fact, sir, that Patsy Ramsey murdered her

19 daughter?

20 A. No, I'm prepared --

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. -- to say, as I have in the past,

23 that that's my belief.

24 Q. Do you know of any prosecutor who

25 is familiar with the evidence that has

392

1 concluded that the evidence shows beyond a

2 reasonable doubt that Patsy Ramsey is guilty

3 of the homicide of her daughter?

4 A. No, because the prosecutors privy

5 to that evidence are bound by grand jury

6 secrecy and none have violated that with me.

7 Q. Did you ever take this case to a

8 prosecutor? I know you all had the Dream

9 Team that was helping the police department.

10 I want to know whether you ever had a

11 prosecutor outside of the seven that were

12 involved in this case that at least

13 Mr. Hunter tells us did not believe that

14 sufficient evidence existed to charge and

15 prosecute Patsy Ramsey. Did you ever take it

16 to a prosecutor and present it to ask someone

17 else outside of Boulder whether that

18 prosecutor believed that this case had

19 evidence justifying prosecution to prove guilt

20 beyond a reasonable doubt; did you ever do

21 that?

22 A. Did we ever pack up our or me

23 case file and take it and do a presentation

24 for an outside prosecutor to see if he

25 thought or would prosecute this case? No,

393

1 not that I'm aware of.

2 Q. Did you ever do it at any time as

3 you sit here today?

4 A. Take it to a prosecutor?

5 Q. Did you take your information,

6 what you knew in all those hundred of pages,

7 that hopefully you'll be able to find now

8 that you'll go look for them in response to

9 that subpoena, and take that to an

10 experienced prosecutor and say, give me your

11 opinion on whether this justifies a

12 prosecution in terms of whether this is

13 sufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a

14 reasonable doubt? Did you ever do that?

15 That's my question.

16 A. No, I have friends that are

17 prosecutors but I never went and did a case

18 presentation of any sort to try to elicit

19 their support in moving forward with the

20 prosecution.

21 Q. All right. Or to give you an

22 opinion on what the evidence pro and con

23 would say to an experienced prosecutor?

24 A. I don't know what you're referring

25 to, Mr. Wood.

394

1 Q. You would have to give them your

2 evidence and you would have to give them the

3 intruder evidence and you would have to say,

4 please, weigh this and tell me because I

5 don't like Alex Hunter and I don't believe

6 that Alex Hunter is doing the right thing in

7 not filing charges or getting an indictment

8 and tell me if you think as an experienced

9 prosecutor the case is here to bring charges;

10 did you ever do that?

11 A. No, I never had some sort of case

12 presentation like that, no.

13 Q. Why did you not, when you had old

14 Barry Scheck, a nice guy, Henry Lee, all

15 these VIPs there, why did you not include the

16 intruder evidence in the presentation to

17 objectively give those individuals both sides

18 of the case?

19 A. Because the Boulder Police

20 Department's position was, as I understood it

21 and understand it, the VIP presentation was

22 to show that there was sufficient probable

23 cause to arrest Patsy Ramsey and for the DA's

24 office to move it forward through the use of

25 a grand jury with that end in mind.

395

1 Q. Of an indictment which is a

2 finding by a grand jury of probable cause to

3 charge or arrest, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You've been in the business long

6 enough to know that the grand jury can, as

7 they say, indict a ham sandwich, right? It

8 doesn't take much evidence to indict or

9 arrest, does it, sir?

10 A. My understanding of probable cause

11 is facts and evidence and circumstances that

12 are within the knowledge of a police officer

13 that would lead a reasonable person to

14 conclude that, A, a crime was committed and

15 B, that a particular individual was involved.

16 Sometimes, depending on the case,

17 that can sometimes be a great threshold.

18 Q. And sometimes it can be a very

19 small threshold, true?

20 A. A lesser threshold.

21 Q. Were you ever told by anyone that

22 the reason the Ramsey lawyers were allowed to

23 see the garrote and to see the firsthand

24 original of the ransom note is because both

25 items were getting ready to be tested in a

396

1 fashion that would be destructive and that

2 from a strategical standpoint somewhere down

3 the road it might be advantageous for the

4 defense lawyers not to be able to claim foul

5 by saying that they didn't have a chance to

6 observe these pieces of evidence before they

7 were destroyed? Did you ever hear that

8 explanation given as to why the Ramsey

9 lawyers were allowed to look at those two

10 items?

11 A. No. But then again it was

12 difficult to get much by way of explanation

13 as to why Mr. Hofstrom was making a number

14 of deals with the Ramsey attorneys.

15 Q. Doesn't that make good sense

16 though, just listening to it?

17 A. Well, I am familiar as a police

18 officer that in Colorado if destructive

19 testing is employed, the defense has a right

20 to be present.

21 Q. You indicated at page 297 of your

22 book consistent with the Boulder police, I

23 will tell you a press release in June of '98

24 that you all had collected 1,058 items of

25 evidence. Does that sound about right?

397

1 A. You know, this was a Beckner --

2 Q. It's at page 297 in your book.

3 A. I know.

4 Q. You adopted it as true, didn't

5 you?

6 A. If I can answer the question.

7 Q. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just trying

8 to move along.

9 A. Beckner put together this as, I

10 think you're right, as some sort of a press

11 release, but I don't disagree with these

12 numbers.

13 Q. How many of those 1,058 pieces of

14 evidence were shared with the Ramseys or the

15 Ramsey lawyers?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. You consulted 500 -- you

18 interviewed 590 people. How many of those

19 interviews were given to the Ramseys or the

20 Ramseys' lawyers?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Consulted 64 outside experts. How

23 many of those experts' reports were given to

24 the Ramseys' lawyers or the Ramseys --

25 A. Mr. Wood, you would know much

398

1 better than I how much --

2 Q. I've got to tell you, Mr. Thomas,

3 I do know and I've got about 14 pages and I

4 could be off by one or two and yet everybody

5 keeps describing this incredible amount of

6 evidence given to the Ramseys and their

7 lawyers. I'm just trying to go figure out

8 where it is because that's not what I've got

9 and that's not what their lawyer has got. I

10 mean, I understand they got to see the

11 garrote and I understand they got to see the

12 first generation ransom note and I didn't get

13 that.

14 But I got the few pages,

15 incomplete pages of police reports that were

16 bargained off with respect to the April '97

17 interview, right?

18 A. (Deponent nods head.)

19 Q. And I don't have any more reports.

20 I don't know of any others that were given

21 to John and Patsy Ramsey according to their

22 lawyers and I'm just trying to figure out

23 what you were talking about when you say you

24 were describing on page 56 the incredible

25 amount of evidence given to the Ramseys and

399

1 their lawyers?

2 A. Courtesy of Pete Hofstrom and I

3 believe others in the DA's office who did

4 this verbally so much was shared by Pete

5 Hofstrom's own admission. If you're just

6 talking about hard copy documents, I don't

7 know what they do or you do or don't have.

8 Q. Take a look at page 58 for me.

9 I don't think I have asked you this. "Some

10 friends" -- the very bottom of 58 on to 59.

11 "Some friends of Patsy's were concerned about

12 how JonBenet was being groomed for pageants

13 with the heavy makeup, the elaborate costumes

14 and recent addition of platinum-dyed hair.

15 It was creating a 'mega-JonBenet thing,' and

16 some friends had planned to have a talk about

17 it with Patsy after Christmas."

18 Who were the friends that were

19 concerned about how JonBenet was being

20 groomed, identify those for me?

21 A. On the record this was per Barb

22 Fernie and I think it included her, Priscilla

23 White and a third party.

24 Q. Who was the third party?

25 A. I don't know.

400

1 Q. Were they the same people that had

2 planned to have a talk about it with Patsy

3 after Christmas?

4 A. That was my understanding and,

5 again, that's on the record with Barb Fernie.

6 Q. And quote, end quote, mega-JonBenet

7 thing, whose phrase was that?

8 A. Barb Fernie.

9 Q. On page 180 of your book you

10 describe some kind of chilling experiences

11 that you had about a cat being killed,

12 mutilated and thrown on to your lawn and

13 garden hose sliced and your wife's flower

14 garden shredded, sergeant Whitson having shots

15 fired into his bedroom, Linda Arndt having

16 blood on her front door.

17 My question is you're not in any

18 way implying or intending to imply that John

19 or Patsy Ramsey had the slightest to do with

20 any of those events, are you?

21 A. No, not now nor did I do it in

22 the book.

23 Q. I just wanted to make sure. I

24 didn't think you were certainly. Who put the

25 screen saver on at the Boulder Police

401

1 Department that said, quote, The Ramseys are

2 the killers?

3 A. I don't know who applied that to

4 the computer screen.

5 Q. Did you think that was

6 professional?

7 A. Oh, sometimes police humor can be

8 less than professional behind closed doors.

9 Q. Well, did you suggest it might be

10 better to take that off since you were in

11 the process of investigation, there were a

12 number of suspects beyond the Ramseys?

13 A. I did not make that suggestion.

14 Q. How long did it stay on the

15 computer?

16 A. I don't know. I recall seeing it

17 a few times over the course of a week or

18 two.

19 Q. Was it up in 1997?

20 A. That's when we were over at the

21 DA's war room.

22 Q. When was that, when was the war

23 room?

24 A. Summer of 1997.

25 Q. So that's when it was up, summer

402

1 of '97, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know who was the policeman

4 or detective who had a picture of Susan Smith

5 tacked to the wall in the war room?

6 A. I don't know who tacked that up

7 or who claimed ownership of that.

8 Q. You have been accused of trying to

9 go out and shop experts to support the

10 conclusion that you had already come up with

11 in May of 1997 that Patsy was the killer.

12 Can you see why someone would make that

13 suggestion, Mr. Thomas --

14 MR. DIAMOND: May I have that

15 read back, please.

16 MR. WOOD: I can read it.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You know you have,

18 I think -- maybe I shouldn't make that

19 assumption. Are you aware that there has

20 been accusations against you that you had

21 early on made up your mind before the

22 investigation was complete and that you went

23 out and shopped experts to try to find

24 somebody on handwriting, somebody on sexual,

25 chronic sexual abuse, to try to support the

403

1 conclusion that you had already drawn? Are

2 you aware of accusations made against you in

3 that light?

4 A. I know that those accusations were

5 made against the police team and they flew

6 back and forth with the DA's team.

7 Q. From the timing standpoint, it

8 appears that one could certainly make that as

9 a plausible argument because you're out here,

10 a lead detective, within the first few months

11 having decided that Patsy is the killer. A

12 lot of the experts have not been hired at

13 that point, true?

14 A. Again, those are your words. I

15 think I have characterized it as trying to

16 follow what I have called an abundance of

17 evidence leading in a particular direction.

18 Q. But at some point you concluded,

19 and the record will speak very clearly about

20 what you said, you say you followed that

21 evidence. But early in 1997, within the

22 first few months, you had drawn your

23 conclusion, right?

24 A. That it appeared based on the

25 evidence that she was not only a good

404

1 suspect, but appeared to be the offender.

2 Q. And there were a number of experts

3 that at that point had not even been hired

4 to review evidence; isn't that true?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. There was a lot of evidence that

7 has never even been collected or even

8 requested, true?

9 A. Such as the clothing?

10 Q. The clothes, that's a key piece of

11 evidence, isn't it, sir?

12 A. Correct. As I have said, that

13 was a mistake.

14 Q. Yeah, and it was one of many

15 mistakes, wasn't it?

16 A. I'm not here today defending the

17 police department.

18 Q. I'm not asking you to defend the

19 police department.

20 A. Yeah, there were many mistakes.

21 Q. Was Jeff Shapiro your confidential

22 informant on any areas other than information

23 from Alex Hunter's office?

24 A. He was -- this kid was all over

25 the board and he --

405

1 Q. I meant for you, though, please.

2 A. I'm sorry?

3 Q. I'm just asking, you described him

4 as my confidential informant and I just want

5 to see any areas other than to give you

6 information about Hunter in his office that

7 he was a confidential informant on for you?

8 A. Were other detectives using him?

9 Q. No. Were you using him for

10 anything other than to find out about what

11 was going on with Alex Hunter?

12 A. Yeah. As I started to say this

13 kid was all over the board and would bring

14 into the police department everything from A

15 to Z. And most of it was nothing but

16 occasionally and I can't think of anything

17 right now, he may bring something in of

18 interest. But in particular, yes, it was --

19 I was most interested in him for the

20 information he was providing about Hunter and

21 the DA's office.

22 Q. At page 232 of your book -- I

23 apologize, I apparently have gotten the wrong

24 cite in my record. Oh, 236, I'm sorry, 236

25 where you say first paragraph under the line

406

1 right here "With our Dream Team, we tallied

2 the points supporting probable cause and found

3 more than 50 items."

4 A. Yes, I'm with you.

5 Q. When was that tally made? Date

6 that for me.

7 A. Mr. Wood, I can't date it

8 specifically but they assisted us in our

9 preparation for the VIP presentation and just

10 a quick reading of this was maybe spring or

11 late spring of '98. But no, it was before

12 that because later in the paragraph it talks

13 about the Title-3, which was way back before

14 Christmas '97. So this was, I would guess,

15 late '97, early to spring of '98.

16 Q. Can I -- I don't have the time

17 today, at least, to ask you to go through

18 and list those 50 items. But can I be

19 reasonably confident that if I set about

20 myself in your book that I could find

21 reference to those 50 items in this book,

22 that you have included those somewhere in

23 here?

24 A. No, I can't commit to that because

25 of what was, I remember there was an easel

407

1 that was used in which everybody in the room

2 put out evidence, information, that sort of

3 thing that went on to this 50-plus point

4 probable cause board.

5 Q. So it may have been all of your

6 points, you may have --

7 A. It certainly wasn't.

8 Q. You may not agree with all of

9 them?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. The 245, 246, you talk about your

12 headlights sweeping across JonBenet's grave

13 and you see the marble headstone "JonBenet

14 Patricia Ramsey, August 6th, 1990-December 25,

15 1996. It was a clue from nowhere."

16 And as I understand it, the clue

17 was that the dates on the grave was a

18 statement by the parents that JonBenet had

19 died before midnight, right?

20 A. This is gravesite surveillance

21 number two that we're talking about, right?

22 Q. I'm talking about -- I'm talking

23 about right here on page 245 and then at the

24 top of 246 "It was a clue from nowhere."

25 "For some reason the parents were stating

408

1 that JonBenet had died before midnight"?

2 A. Right.

3 MR. DIAMOND: Take as much time

4 as you need to put that in context.

5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) If the parents had

6 placed the date of December 26, 1996 on the

7 tombstone of their daughter, would you have

8 concluded that it was a clue from nowhere

9 because for some reason the parents were

10 stating that JonBenet had died after midnight?

11 A. It was a clue I think in either

12 event given the information immediately

13 subsequent to, it was a clue from nowhere, I

14 think -- no, it doesn't. But given the

15 questionable time of death and how we were

16 trying to tie that at times to the digestion

17 of this pineapple certainly made this a clue.

18 Q. But it would have been a clue of

19 the 26th if they had chosen the 26th, right,

20 if they were saying it was a clue to you as

21 a detective in a homicide case that they're

22 stating she died after midnight because they

23 put December 26th, that's the way you would

24 have interpreted it, right?

25 A. I don't know because knowing what

409

1 I knew then is different than what I know,

2 but standing in my shoes in that cemetery on

3 this particular night this was something

4 unknown to us at the time because the

5 Ramseys, to my knowledge, had never indicated

6 a date of death and this thus became a clue

7 from nowhere.

8 Q. Have you ever seen a tombstone

9 where it has alternative dates of death, sir?

10 A. Never.

11 Q. Don't you think John and Patsy

12 Ramsey had to make a choice, and they chose

13 December 25th, that potentially had nothing to

14 do with their trying to make a statement

15 about when she died; did you ever consider

16 that?

17 A. Actually, I heard them make just

18 such a statement -- or make such a statement

19 saying -- he was trying to make a statement

20 putting down December 25.

21 Q. To remind people of what happened

22 in effect at Christmas to his child?

23 A. That's my understanding.

24 Q. But not to state that she died

25 before midnight. As I understand it, the

410

1 only way under your clue analysis as a

2 homicide detective that the Ramseys could have

3 avoided being accused one way or the other

4 would have been had they put on there

5 December 25 or December 26, 1996; is my logic

6 right?

7 A. No, it's not right. As I just

8 explained knowing what I knew then standing

9 there looking at it, it appeared to me that

10 here was a clue that she died on December

11 25.

12 MR. WOOD: Why don't we take a

13 break. I think I'm down to about 15

14 minutes, and I would like to kind of look

15 and see where I am and what we might do to

16 wrap this thing up.

17 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

18 5:45. We're going off the record.

19 (Recess taken from 5:45 p.m. to

20 5:55 p.m.)

21 MR. WOOD: I will represent if

22 you give me 25 minutes, I will be done in

23 terms of my discovery deposition of

24 Mr. Thomas in the Wolf versus Ramsey case.

25 I can't speak to Darnay, obviously, because

411

1 there was the issue, as you recall, about the

2 testimonial deposition that is still in the

3 process, indicated by Judge Carnes to follow,

4 but I'm done.

5 In other words, I'm not going to

6 go bang on Carnes and say, I need 15, 20, 30

7 more minutes.

8 (Discussion off the record between

9 deponent and Mr. Diamond.)

10 MR. WOOD: You wouldn't be coming

11 back on my deposition. You would be coming

12 back on Mr. Hoffman's.

13 MR. DIAMOND: My understanding of

14 the conference, and I think the record

15 transcript will bear this out, is that the

16 hour that Mr. Hoffman asked for was his

17 direct testimony for use at trial.

18 MR. WOOD: No, I disagree with

19 you. I think Judge Carnes was clear I would

20 have a discovery deposition to be able to

21 cross-examine on a testimonial deposition if

22 Mr. Hoffman chooses to present him by

23 deposition at a trial or live at trial.

24 Pretty clear. But be that as it may whether

25 I'm right or wrong --

412

1 MR. DIAMOND: I'm just speaking to

2 whether Mr. Hoffman is now complete. And my

3 view --

4 MR. WOOD: I don't know whether

5 he intends to take a testimonial deposition

6 or not, but there is nothing that you and I

7 can agree to that would prohibit him from

8 doing so, nor do I think that I can sit here

9 and agree that I wouldn't come back and take

10 a testimonial deposition.

11 I'm trying to finish the discovery

12 deposition. I'm asking for, in effect, 15,

13 10 minutes or 18 minutes more than what I

14 think I'm entitled to.

15 MR. DIAMOND: Are you planning on

16 taking a testimonial deposition?

17 MR. WOOD: I have no way to say

18 that to you right now. I don't think Darnay

19 could say that to you right now. We're so

20 far away from even knowing whether we'll ever

21 have a testimony. This case could come up

22 on summary judgment, for gosh sakes, that

23 could make us a year or two away from even

24 deciding that point, Chuck; isn't that fair?

25 MR. RAWLS: That's fair.

413

1 MR. DIAMOND: Let me consult for

2 a moment.

3 (Discussion off the record between

4 Mr. Diamond and the deponent.)

5 MR. DIAMOND: Start.

6 MR. WOOD: Let's go back on.

7 Thank you. I'll get it right here on the

8 money. I'll mark it. You've got 25 minutes

9 of tape left?

10 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: I have 35

11 minutes of tape left.

12 MR. DIAMOND: You get that on the

13 record?

14 MR. WOOD: We know we've used it

15 up. Nobody can try to sneak more than that

16 extra ten in.

17 MR. DIAMOND: Just so the record

18 is clear, we're agreeing to your proposal.

19 MR. WOOD: Thank you very much.

20 I appreciate it. If the opportunity should

21 ever present itself, I would certainly

22 consider like accommodation and consider more

23 if necessary.

24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

25 5:58. We're back on the video depo.

414

1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Was the garrote

2 handle ever tested for fingerprints?

3 A. I believe so, yes.

4 Q. Do you know what the findings

5 were?

6 A. I believe that Detective Trujillo

7 told us that it required the unwrapping of

8 the ligature cord and the -- and it was

9 negative for any latent prints.

10 Q. Was there any partial palm print

11 found on the ransom note?

12 A. Mr. Wood, I talk about in the

13 book the prints that were found on the tablet

14 and the note, but beyond that, I don't have

15 any real evidence beyond that. Early there

16 was believed to have been a partial or bladed

17 palm which I believed turned out to be

18 nothing.

19 Q. Do you know whether there was any

20 effort to take that what was believed to be

21 a partial palm and compare it to the palm

22 print found on the wine cellar door?

23 A. What I'm saying is I don't know

24 that what was initially believed to be a

25 partial print was even a print.

415

1 Q. It's not uncommon to handle a

2 piece of paper and not leave fingerprints, is

3 it, sir?

4 A. I don't know that.

5 Q. You don't want me to go there.

6 The -- as I understand it, there was a

7 beaver hair, what was identified as a beaver

8 hair, found on the duct tape?

9 A. FBI lab identified a hair or fiber

10 from the adhesive side of the duct tape as a

11 beaver hair.

12 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Ainsworth,

13 Detective Ainsworth, went through the Ramseys'

14 closets in June of 1997 and taped all the

15 closets for hairs and that no beaver hair was

16 found?

17 A. Yes, but that's not surprising.

18 Q. Were there also brown and black

19 animal hairs found on JonBenet Ramsey's hand

20 that had never been sourced?

21 A. Brown and black animal hairs on

22 her hand that had never been sourced? This

23 is the first I've heard of that.

24 Q. How about brown cotton fibers that

25 were found on the duct tape, the cord and

416

1 her body that were consistent but no source

2 found? Is that accurate?

3 A. That were consistent with what?

4 Q. They were consistent with each

5 other, those fibers, the brown cotton fibers

6 that were consistent with fibers found on

7 duct tape, cords and her body?

8 A. That's beyond the scope of what I

9 know and just to educate you, if you allow

10 me.

11 Q. Sure.

12 A. Anything hair and fiber related,

13 Trujillo knows.

14 Q. I think we've already talked about

15 it was a large number of fibers that were

16 never sourced, right, while you were there?

17 A. In the house, yes.

18 Q. There was a pubic hair, or what

19 was believed to be a pubic hair, that may

20 have turned out to be an ancillary hair, but

21 that hair has never been sourced, as you know

22 it?

23 A. As far as I know.

24 Q. The pineapple, we know the autopsy

25 statement about the findings. Were there any

417

1 tests performed beyond the autopsy on those

2 contents?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell me about that.

5 A. What I know about that is

6 Detective Weinheimer received that assignment

7 during the course of the investigation,

8 employed the help of I think a biological --

9 or a botanist or somebody of some expertise

10 at the University of Colorado, Boulder. The

11 name Dr. Bach jumps out at me, as well as

12 others, and he completed a series of reports

13 concerning the pineapple and I think to save

14 time one of those conclusions I think I put

15 in the book.

16 Q. About the rinds being identical?

17 A. That it was a fresh pineapple

18 consistent -- fresh pineapple with a rind.

19 Q. Rind being consistent -- oh, with

20 a rind but consistent with pineapple found in

21 the house or in the bowl?

22 A. Yeah, and let me clarify that,

23 pineapple consistent down to the rind with

24 pineapple found in the bowl in the kitchen.

25 Q. Consistent down to the rind. It

418

1 seems to me pineapple with rind is pineapple

2 with rind. Was there something unique about

3 this particular rind?

4 A. I think they were able to

5 determine -- well, in fact, I know that

6 fellow Officer Weinheimer disclosed to us that

7 they were able to characterize it as a fresh

8 pineapple rather than a canned pineapple.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. I think the investigation lent

11 itself as far as, and Detective Weinheimer is

12 a capable investigator, as far as contacting

13 Dole Pineapple in Hawaii, et cetera.

14 Q. Do you know whether there were any

15 other reports on the pineapple, other than

16 the autopsy reports and Dr. Bach's reports?

17 A. Yeah, there was a series of

18 reports on Weinheimer's investigation.

19 Q. Do you know anybody else by name

20 that was involved in that, other than the Dr.

21 Bach? I mean, Dole didn't give you any

22 report, did they?

23 A. No, not that I'm aware of.

24 Sorry, the names escape me but there are

25 other reports with other planters, I guess,

419

1 pineapple, for lack of a better term,

2 experts.

3 Q. Any of those reports, anybody come

4 up with something that was inconclusive in

5 terms of findings?

6 A. I'm sorry, I don't recall the

7 content of the reports.

8 Q. At Quantico, was there one FBI

9 agent that said at the end of discussion that

10 the Boulder police should keep an open mind

11 on the case because it could be a sex

12 offender?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who was that agent?

15 A. I believe that was Ken Lanning.

16 Q. Did you all ever have a dump

17 placed on the Ramsey phone?

18 A. Like a trap and trace or a wire

19 tap?

20 Q. An LUD or an Amadump, where you

21 actually go in and get the outgoing calls and

22 the incoming calls?

23 A. What that sounds, in the jargon

24 I'm familiar with, Mr. Wood, is in Colorado

25 we would call that like a trap and trace.

420

1 But I think it's different because you have

2 to be up on the trap and trace to record

3 incoming/outgoing, also known as a pen

4 register. But a dump, whereas anything prior

5 -- I'm not explaining this well.

6 Q. Let me see if I can help. Was

7 there a mechanism in Boulder that would allow

8 you to go to the phone company and say I

9 want you to go back and tell me today on the

10 26th of December all outgoing and ingoing

11 calls to the Ramsey number for, say, the last

12 two or three days?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You had to do it forward, not

15 backward?

16 A. Right, I'm not familiar with any

17 -- the phone company here having any

18 capability to do that.

19 Q. Do you know for a fact that they

20 could not?

21 A. With the exception, and I don't

22 know how detailed you want to get into this,

23 but certainly toll calls, toll calls you can

24 certainly go back and retrieve.

25 Q. Long-distance toll calls?

421

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Did you all do that with the

3 Ramsey records?

4 A. I think so.

5 Q. There has been a lot of debate

6 about whether or not John Ramsey or Patsy

7 Ramsey or some of the Ramsey family before

8 the murder of JonBenet owned the book Mind

9 Hunter by John Douglas. Have you ever seen

10 a photograph of that from a crime scene photo

11 in their house?

12 A. No, but Tom Wickman swears up and

13 down it was in the parents' bedroom.

14 Q. Does anyone else, besides Tom

15 Wickman, swear that up and down?

16 A. No, but Tom Wickman has told that

17 to several people.

18 Q. Where in the bedroom?

19 A. I was always under the impression

20 as we recollect it now on one of the two

21 night stands.

22 Q. By John's bed or by Patsy's?

23 A. I'm sorry, it's one or the other,

24 I thought. Maybe I -- no, maybe I

25 referenced it in the book, maybe I didn't.

422

1 All I can tell you right now is on one of

2 the night stands.

3 Q. Did you keep a -- but Wickman is

4 the only person that says that, right?

5 A. As far as crime scene people that

6 were in the house.

7 Q. Or anybody.

8 A. Yeah, Wickman is the source of

9 Mind Hunter by Douglas.

10 Q. Anyone else, besides Wickman, is

11 all I'm trying to find out?

12 A. Not that I'm aware of.

13 Q. Did you keep a Frank Coffman

14 article called -- from the column Clues

15 Abound folded up in your badge wallet at any

16 point in time?

17 A. If we're talking about Frank

18 Coffman -- no, I don't I recall the article

19 if we're talking about the same article,

20 which I had cut out, which I had at my desk

21 at the Boulder Police Department.

22 Q. Did you meet with Frank Coffman

23 and Jeff Shapiro one day and reach into your

24 badge wallet and unfold the article and show

25 it to Frank and Jeff and say basically, guys,

423

1 you're right about where I'm coming from,

2 words to that effect?

3 A. No. Again, I was very careful

4 with Shapiro and didn't know Coffman, but I

5 do acknowledge of being in possession of that

6 article. If I had it in my wallet, I don't

7 know.

8 Q. You have told me about what you

9 have described and we'll leave it to your

10 description on the record, your feelings about

11 Alex Hunter. You're aware of, I think, Alex

12 Hunter's feelings of you and descriptions of

13 you as somebody out for blood money, a rogue

14 detective, we'll leave it at that, and maybe

15 others. You're aware of those things being

16 said publicly by Mr. Hunter about you?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. When did the -- I mean, there is

19 a level of animosity between the two of you

20 and that's probably politely stated; wouldn't

21 you agree?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. When did that start? Did it

24 exist before the Ramsey case?

25 A. I didn't know Hunter before the

424

1 Ramsey case.

2 Q. When in the scale of things do

3 you think you can say to yourself that you

4 formulated opinions that you hold about Alex

5 Hunter? And you don't have to answer for

6 him I'll ask him at the appropriate time. I

7 want to know when you felt like you were

8 sitting there thinking I can't believe a word

9 this man speaks?

10 A. Mr. Wood, that was a -- certainly

11 there was a culture inside the police

12 department that existed years or a couple of

13 decades before I even arrived there in which

14 the DA's office and the police department had

15 a terrible working relationship. But not

16 knowing Mr. Hunter until our involvement on

17 this case together, that was very incremental

18 in fashion or incremental in stages, but by

19 the time I left the police department, it was

20 certainly at its height.

21 I was very dismayed and

22 disappointed and had no love for Hunter after

23 some of these revelations by Shapiro.

24 Q. You state in your book there were

25 27 reasons for a grand jury and it's at page

425

1 309. But my question is, were those 27

2 reasons for a grand jury correlate to the 27

3 remaining tasks that were referred to in that

4 June '98 press release by the Boulder Police

5 Department?

6 A. Let me look at 309 real quickly.

7 308, 309?

8 Q. It's on 309 and I've got a copy

9 of that press release where he says there

10 were 27 tasks remaining. I'm just wondering

11 if that's the correlation.

12 A. Oh, if I understand you correctly,

13 did these 27 reasons correspond with the 27

14 tasks left on the to-do list?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. No.

17 Q. You do acknowledge having said

18 that the idea of Patsy Ramsey going

19 downstairs and putting a garrote around

20 JonBenet's neck is a hard leap to make, your

21 words on --

22 A. Yes, a lot of people, as I said,

23 myself included, but maybe in a naive way but

24 after learning what the FBI taught us about

25 child homicide, as I said, they've seen

426

1 children destroyed and killed in the most

2 grotesque and worst manners imaginable.

3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Careful, your

4 mike is --

5 MR. WOOD: I'm making noises.

6 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Burden of Proof

7 4/17/2000, Greta Van Sustren said to Alex

8 Hunter, In the Ramsey book Patsy and John

9 Ramsey write that John has been excluded from

10 being the author of the note and that Patsy

11 on a one to five scale, five meaning

12 excluded, hit 4.5. Do you endorse those two

13 findings?

14 Hunter: Well, I think that's

15 close, but I think that this is a mumbo

16 jumbo area.

17 Do you ever remember hearing -- I

18 had mentioned this to you earlier and I found

19 the transcript. Do you recall hearing that

20 Alex Hunter had basically agreed with the 4.5

21 finding?

22 A. As I said earlier, no, I didn't

23 see that or read that transcript.

24 Q. There has been some reference to

25 an FBI statistic that 50 percent of child

427

1 homicides are committed by family members.

2 Do you recall that statistic?

3 A. I don't.

4 Q. Or it's 54 percent, I think?

5 A. I think the statistics that we had

6 at Quantico at that big FBI meeting, they

7 gave us some statistics. I may have them in

8 the book, but you would have to lead me to

9 them.

10 Q. Who is the pediatric expert that

11 thought that there may have been some

12 corporal punishment inflicted on JonBenet for

13 repeated bed wetting?

14 A. Dr. Krugman.

15 Q. Steve Thomas: What was

16 interesting is that we found no history or

17 pathology or evidence to indicate that John

18 Ramsey had any untoward relationship or

19 discipline with his children. Is that true?

20 A. I've never thought that.

21 Q. I found Patsy Ramsey to be a

22 complex person on many levels but there had

23 been no reported history of any abuse in the

24 house; is that true?

25 A. What are you reading from,

428

1 Mr. Wood?

2 Q. A CNN chat transcript, CNN April

3 14th, 2000, Author Steve Thomas tells his

4 story.

5 A. Can you reread for me the Patsy

6 Ramsey section?

7 Q. Be glad to. I found Patsy Ramsey

8 to be a complex person on many levels but

9 there had been no reported history of any

10 abuse in the house.

11 Is that true?

12 A. Yeah, we had no reported incidents

13 of any abuse in the house.

14 Q. 331, the second full paragraph, it

15 starts with "Fleet and Priscilla White were

16 being hauled over the coals because they

17 wanted to see their previous statements,

18 pointing out that they were being denied the

19 same privilege given to the Ramseys"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "Chief Mark Beckman declared to

22 the Whites, who had supported another

23 candidate for his new job, were 'morally

24 empty' and again suggested putting Fleet White

25 in jail."

429

1 When did that occur?

2 A. That was late spring, I believe,

3 of '98, certainly in 1998. But I recall

4 this.

5 Q. Do you recall Mark Beckner ever

6 asking you if you thought that Fleet White

7 could possibly be the murderer?

8 A. Mr. Wood, I think maybe even in

9 this same passage.

10 Q. I think that's where it is, here

11 it is, I'm sorry. "'For what?' I had asked

12 Beckner incredulously. Beckner later asked me

13 if Fleet could possibly be the murderer."

14 Have I read that correctly?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That would have been a comment

17 made in 1998 by Chief Beckner?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. You talk about in your book that

20 JonBenet was an incredible little kid, right?

21 A. Are we on the last page?

22 Q. I think it's -- it's page 353 of

23 your hardback?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. You talk about something that

430

1 sounds a little bit like something I read in

2 Perfect Murder, Perfect Town about the sun

3 and the rhythm of the earth beneath her feet.

4 "She was an incredible little girl who loved

5 to be tickled. Ms. America was the least

6 she could have been." Am I reading that

7 correctly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you give her parents any credit

10 for that in terms of bringing her up for

11 those six years?

12 A. Certainly.

13 Q. Did you know a Dr. Monteleone,

14 M-o-n-t-e-l-e-o-n-e?

15 A. As a matter of fact, I think

16 that's the name I could not recall that was

17 the pediatric expert from St. Louis.

18 Q. Did he ever indicate that he did

19 not believe that parents would engage in the

20 type of staging that was being argued existed

21 in the Ramsey case in the absence of

22 pathology?

23 A. Well, that certainly I think would

24 contradict what he put in a report on

25 letterhead to the Boulder Police Department.

431

1 Q. So you recall that report. Was

2 that one of the documents you copied?

3 A. I don't know --

4 Q. Or received?

5 A. -- if that is, but I do recall

6 that report and in that report I think the

7 outstanding mention was that he was of the

8 opinion that she had sustained prior vaginal

9 trauma prior to December 26 or 25.

10 Q. There was a pocket knife found on

11 the basement counter?

12 A. Which I learned later, right.

13 Q. And was that ever sourced, to your

14 knowledge?

15 A. No. My recollection of that is

16 terribly vague because I don't know when we

17 talked about those thousand-plus pieces of

18 evidence collected, those were potential

19 pieces of evidence, I think that the pocket

20 knife may have been collected, but I don't

21 know. There was the suggestion that I

22 overheard that that belonged to Burke.

23 Q. Was that ever sourced to Burke?

24 A. Not prior to me leaving.

25 Q. In the Ann Bardach article, I'm

432

1 sorry, now I can't find it. Here we go.

2 It came out of the October '97 Vanity Fair.

3 There is a reference to the number 74 in

4 terms of individuals who had had their

5 handwriting analyzed. Again I apologize, I'll

6 lean over a minute. Right here, Out of the

7 74 names submitted for testing Patsy's

8 handwriting was the only one that set off

9 alarm bells, end quote. Do you see that?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Was that your statement to her?

12 A. That may have been. I know that

13 she talked to other police officers.

14 Q. Does that mean were those the 74

15 that maybe now is referenced 73?

16 A. Possibly.

17 Q. So that the 73 handwriting

18 analyses that you refer to in your book were

19 by virtue of the date of this completed

20 sometime by September of 1997?

21 A. Are those one and the same?

22 Q. Yeah.

23 A. They may be.

24 Q. Do you believe there have been 74

25 handwriting analyses done before you have made

433

1 that statement to Ann Bardach?

2 A. Well, I'm not acknowledging that

3 it was me necessarily, but if that was me

4 that would -- certainly I would have said it

5 holding that belief.

6 Q. The most sensitive and critical

7 police and detective reports as well as

8 reproductions of both the ransom note and the

9 practice note found the same day had been

10 given to the Ramseys, the Ramseys' best

11 defense attorneys are right and sat in

12 Hunter's office, he mumbled bitterly.

13 Is that something you believe you

14 said?

15 A. I don't know if that was Arndt or

16 me or who that was. I don't disagree with

17 the sentiment.

18 Q. One day in early July I was

19 contacted by a source with firsthand knowledge

20 of the investigation. I arranged to meet

21 with him in a parking lot outside Boulder

22 Edgy, and fearfully he said he was speaking

23 to me only as a last resort. He said that

24 a flow of privileged confidential information

25 critical to a case against the Ramseys had

434

1 been leaked from the DA's office to the

2 Ramseys' lawyers with the efficiency of a

3 seed.

4 Is that you?

5 A. It could be.

6 Q. If the Ramseys had been some poor

7 Mexican couple, they would have been in their

8 face for a week, got a confession out of

9 them and filed first degree murder charges

10 against them within days, quote unquote.

11 Does that sound like something you

12 may have told her?

13 A. I don't know if I made that

14 statement. A statement that sounds similar

15 to what I have said in the past is had this

16 been an indigent or minority couple I think

17 we would have handled this case entirely

18 different.

19 Q. She said -- she prefaced that by

20 saying, It's cold outside and I suggest that

21 we find a late night coffee shop in the car.

22 I can see the depth of this man's agitation.

23 Quote, I have never seen politics and

24 preferential treatment play such a major role

25 in a case. He says that had the Ramseys

435

1 been some poor Mexican couple.

2 That's you, isn't it?

3 A. Typically -- I met her in the

4 summer of '97 and typically it's not cold

5 outside in the summer in Colorado.

6 Q. It had to be with somebody because

7 that's when she was here?

8 A. Right, it's the summertime. It

9 could be.

10 Q. I'm down to two minutes. And if

11 I can take a one-minute break to make sure

12 that Mr. Rawls wants me to spend my last two

13 minutes covering any last one or two

14 questions, I would appreciate it.

15 MR. DIAMOND: Okay.

16 MR. WOOD: I also need to go to

17 the restroom. I held back on the --

18 MR. DIAMOND: I need to be

19 downstairs at 6:30.

20 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

21 6:22. We're off the record.

22 (Recess taken from 6:22 p.m. to

23 6:23 p.m.)

24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

25 6:23. We're going on the record.

436

1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, in

2 terms of the search of the Ramseys' hard

3 drive and their computer, was anything found

4 that was viewed as suspicious or incriminating

5 in August?

6 A. There were, I think reams of

7 documents that came off that recovered hard

8 drive, but I think as far as, I don't know

9 if the search included pornography, I think

10 it did, nothing like that, but there was

11 other documents that were later used for

12 Foster. But I --

13 Q. For handwriting analysis, I'm

14 talking about beyond use for analysis of

15 handwriting, anything --

16 A. You mean suspicious?

17 Q. Or incriminating?

18 A. I would have to flip back through

19 it.

20 Q. Anything that jumps out at you as

21 we sit here today?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And certainly there is never any

24 finding despite a fairly extensive search that

25 in any way linked the Ramseys to any type of

437

1 pornography; am I right about that?

2 A. Not that I'm aware of.

3 Q. There is a reference to I would

4 lose it with my two minutes ticking. Let me

5 ask you, while I'm doing this to look at

6 page 408, and that's probably going to be the

7 paperback. I'll let you take a look at my

8 copy of that.

9 If I can point you to it,

10 Mr. Thomas, right here, I've got it written

11 down page 408, It should be a lesson to

12 communities across America --

13 MR. DIAMOND: Can you give us

14 just a second?

15 MR. WOOD: Yeah.

16 MR. DIAMOND: Okay.

17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) "It should be a

18 lesson to communities across America not to

19 allow any politician to become an emperor and

20 merely interpret the law as he or she sees

21 fit."

22 Have I read that correctly?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you also agree that

25 communities across America should not allow

438

1 any police officer to become an emperor and

2 merely interpret the law as he or she sees

3 fit?

4 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.

5 Argumentative. You may answer.

6 A. In the context, again, please, Mr.

7 Wood.

8 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yes, just as a

9 statement of principle that communities across

10 America should not allow any police officer

11 to become an emperor and merely interpret the

12 law as he or she sees fit, it would apply to

13 politicians and police officers, wouldn't it?

14 A. Non committal on that.

15 Q. You don't have a position on the

16 difference between a politician and police

17 officer in terms of interpreting the law?

18 A. I'll give it some thought.

19 Q. Okay. Last question, page 181,

20 the last two questions and then I'm done.

21 Are you with me?

22 A. 181.

23 Q. 181, you make reference to three

24 FBI agents, intruder theory?

25 A. Help me. Where on the page?

439

1 Q. I'm looking myself. Oh, I'm

2 sorry, I'm looking at the paperback. 161, I

3 apologize. Do you see where it starts "Three

4 FBI agents"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What I want to know is if you can

7 date that for me? "'The case is not being

8 handled well,' said the CASKU agents."

9 A. Shortly before I believe the

10 Ramseys' April 30, 1997 interview.

11 Q. Can you identify the three agents

12 for me?

13 A. Supervisory special agent Bill

14 Hagmaier, special agent Mike Morrow, and their

15 partner and the third special agent, his name

16 just escapes me at the moment.

17 Q. And those three agents prior to

18 April 30, 1997 said that the intruder theory

19 was absurd, Hofstrom needs to act like a

20 prosecutor not a public defender. Don't do

21 tomorrow's interview and get a grand jury as

22 soon as possible, right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The final question, page 204.

25 MR. DIAMOND: And this is the

440

1 final question?

2 MR. WOOD: Yes, I appreciate it

3 because I think I'm probably 30 seconds over.

4 MR. DIAMOND: That's all right.

5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) "To unlock that

6 damned S.B.T.C. acronym at the bottom of the

7 ransom note, I called the U. S. Treasury

8 Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement

9 Network. I talked to Linda Percy. 'I've

10 been waiting for this call for six months.'"

11 Can you date that call for me,

12 please, sir?

13 A. I believe, and I can't

14 definitively, but I believe that was in the

15 summer of 1997.

16 Q. June, July or August of '97, you

17 believe?

18 A. As we sit here right now, yeah, I

19 recall that as being the summer of 1997.

20 MR. WOOD: Thank you for the

21 accommodation on the additional time, both to

22 Mr. Thomas, thank you. Mr. Diamond, thank

23 you. Mr. Smith, thank you. My portion of

24 the examination in the Wolf versus Ramsey

25 case from a discovery standpoint is complete.

441

1 MR. RAWLS: As is mine.

2 MR. DIAMOND: Before we leave, I

3 believe it's automatic under your

4 confidentiality order for a period of ten

5 days after the --

6 MR. WOOD: After the transcript.

7 MR. DIAMOND: That there's an

8 automatic in position of confidentiality. To

9 the extent I am wrong, we are designating

10 this as confidential subject --

11 MR. WOOD: It is.

12 MR. DIAMOND: -- look, review it.

13 MR. WOOD: Any deposition is

14 deemed confidential if you sign on to a

15 protective order. That's why I thought you

16 all were --

17 MR. DIAMOND: I don't know that

18 we have to sign on to a protective order to

19 do that, I --

20 MR. WOOD: I didn't go into any

21 confidential information as it turned out. I

22 tried to phrase it in a way that avoided

23 that problem.

24 MR. DIAMOND: I appreciate that.

25 MR. WOOD: I will treat clearly

442

1 the statement about his Social Security number

2 as confidential.

3 MR. DIAMOND: I think you should

4 treat the entire contents of this deposition

5 as confidential.

6 MR. RAWLS: I think it does say

7 that for ten days they have a right to

8 designate --

9 MR. DIAMOND: Ten days after

10 receipt.

11 MR. RAWLS: Receipt of the

12 transcript.

13 MR. WOOD: If they sign on to the

14 provision of the protective order. Whatever

15 the order says, we're going to do justice by

16 the order because the last person I want to

17 see is Julie Carnes telling me I violated her

18 order. Life is too short.

19 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is

20 6:30. We're going off the record.

21 (WHEREUPON, the deposition recessed

22 at 6:30 p.m.)

23 .

24 .

25 .

443

1 INDEX TO EXHIBITS

2 Exhibit Description

3 1 9/20/01 policetraining.net the calendar

4 for law enforcement training

5 2 6/18/97 fax cover sheet from Don

6 Foster to Gordon Cooper, w/attachments

7 3 9/18/01 CBS.com New Ramsey Book to

8 Hit Stands

9 4 Photocopy of autopsy photo of JonBenet

10 Ramsey

11 5 Photocopy of autopsy photo of JonBenet

12 Ramsey

13 (Original exhibits retained by

14 Attorney Lin Wood.)

15 .

16 .

17 .

18 .

19 .

20 .

21 .

22 .

23 .

24 .

25 .

444

1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

2 STATE OF COLORADO:

3 COUNTY OF DENVER:

4 I, Kelly A. Mackereth, Certified

5 Realtime Reporter, Certified Shorthand

6 Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter and

7 Notary Public within the state of Colorado,

8 do hereby certify that previous to the

9 commencement of the examination, the deponent

10 was duly sworn by me to testify to the

11 truth.

12 I further certify that this

13 deposition was taken in shorthand by me at

14 the time and place herein set forth and was

15 thereafter reduced to typewritten form, and

16 that the foregoing constitutes a true and

17 correct transcript.

18 I further certify that I am not

19 related to, employed by, nor of counsel for

20 any of the parties or attorneys herein, nor

21 otherwise interested in the result of the

22 within action.

23 My commission expires 4/21/03.

24 _____________________________

25 Kelly A. Mackereth

445

1 CAPTION

2 The Deposition of Steven Thomas,

3 taken in the matter, on the date, and at the

4 time and place set out on the title page

5 hereof.

6 It was requested that the deposition

7 be taken by the reporter and that same be

8 reduced to typewritten form.

9 It was agreed by and between counsel

10 and the parties that the Deponent will read

11 and sign the transcript of said deposition.

12 .

13 .

14 .

15 .

16 .

17 .

18 .

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25 .

446

1 CERTIFICATE

2 STATE OF :

3 COUNTY/CITY OF :

4 Before me, this day, personally

5 appeared, Steven Thomas, who, being duly

6 sworn, states that the foregoing transcript

7 of his/her Deposition, taken in the matter,

8 on the date, and at the time and place set

9 out on the title page hereof, constitutes a

10 true and accurate transcript of said

11 deposition.

13 Steven Thomas

14 .

15 SUBSCRIBED and SWORN to before me this

16 day of , 2001 in the

17 jurisdiction aforesaid.

19 My Commission Expires Notary Public

20 .

21 .

22 .

23 .

24 .

25 .

447

1 DEPOSITION ERRATA SHEET

2 .

3 RE: Alexander Gallo & Associates

4 File No. 1637

5 Case Caption: Robert Christian Wolf vs.

6 John Bennet Ramsey, et al

7 Deponent: Steven Thomas

8 Deposition Date: September 21, 2001

9 .

10 To the Reporter:

11 I have read the entire transcript of my

12 Deposition taken in the captioned matter or

13 the same has been read to me. I request

14 that the following changes be entered upon

15 the record for the reasons indicated. I

16 have signed my name to the Errata Sheet and

17 the appropriate Certificate and authorize you

18 to attach both to the original transcript.

19 .

20 Page No./Line No. Reason:

21 _________________________________________________

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448

1 _________________________________________________

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21 .

22 SIGNATURE:_______________________DATE:___________

23 Steven Thomas.