A Personal view of the Internet Subculture Surrounding the JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

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48 Hours Investigates - Searching for a Killer October 4, 2002 8pm DST CBS

Transcribed by ACandyRose DO NOT COPY THIS TO THE FORUMS This web pages prints out 23 pages Patsy Ramsey: "If our DNA matched anything significant they would have arrested us in a New York minute." Announcer: "New information, new evidence, new leads in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Take a look at this.........." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "I did not kill my child." Announcer: "48 Hours investigates has obtained the police interrogation tapes of John and Patsy Ramsey never made public until tonight" Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "I don't give a flying flip how scientific it is, go back to the damn drawing board." John Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) "But frankly, she and JonBenet were.... (long pause).... extremely close" Announcer: "Erin Moriarty heads up our six months investigation." Detective Lou Smit: "I don't think the Ramsey's did it and I think they should start looking for people that did." Announcer: "We have evidence the police ignored for four years." Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "Oh you can't play this on camera" Announcer: "And a chilling conversation with one man the Ramey's say deserves a closer look" Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "He related to me that he done something horrible." Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Gary Oliva in Boulder County Jail) "Did you hurt or kill JonBenet Ramsey?" Announcer: "48 Hours investigates searching for a killer" ****************************************** Lesley Stahl: Good evening and welcome to 48 Hours investigates, I'm Lesley Stahl. Tonight we've got something remarkable for you. If you're like most Americans you probably think that John and Patsy Ramsey are hiding something in the murder of their daughter, JonBenet. In fact in a new poll for 48 Hours investigates, 52 percent say they believe one or both parents were involved in the murder in some way. Erin Moriarty reports the results of our exclusive investigation that could change your mind. (Program showing background shots of photos of JonBenet Ramsey) John Ramsey: "She was the spark plug of our family because of this zest that she had, she just kept things alive and hopping'. It's not the same without her." Patsy Ramsey: "Why is it so hard for people to understand that we loved this child with everything in our being? We would never ... touch a hair on the head of one of our children. I mean it just is inconceivable to me." (Program playing church bells and showing background shots from the funeral and the Ramsey's walking out the door of the church) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Their faces are instantly recognizable, but John and Patsy Ramsey are famous in a way no one would want." (Program showing background shots of cemetery and JonBenet's grave and headstone) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Although they have never publicly been called suspects or charged with the 1996 death of their daughter, JonBenet, they are resigned to a painful reality." (Program showing background shots of the 1997 vigil for JonBenet in Boulder Colorado) John Ramsey: "We could find the killer tomorrow, he could be arrested, convicted and you know, jailed, and there'd still be 20 per cent of the population would think that we had something to do with it" (Program showing background shots of the Ramsey former Boulder home now surrounded by a black wrought iron fence) Erin Moriarty: "48 Hours investigates is taking a fresh look at the Ramsey case. You will hear about new evidence and new leads. We will also tell you the Ramsey's personal story and what they think happen here in their Boulder Colorado home on Christmas night nearly six years ago." (Program showing background of June 1998 police interrogation tapes) (Voice Over of Patsy Ramsey and John Ramsey from separate 1998 police interrogation tapes) Detective Tom Haney: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "Okay, and again...." John Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) "She screamed my name and ....." Erin Moriarty: "We will also show tonight something that has never been seen publicly, video tapes of the police interrogation of both John and Patsy Ramsey." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "I didn't do it.... John Ramsey didn't do it and we didn't have a clue of anybody who did do it." Erin Moriarty: "But first the Ramey's today in a rare interview they agreed to completely unrestricted discussion of the case." Erin Moriarty: (Talking to the Ramseys) "Did your daughter have a bedwetting incident that night? Did you get up, did you get angry and did you hurt her? Patsy Ramsey: (smiling) "No I did not." Erin Moriarty: "What is your reaction when you know that many people think that's what you did?" Patsy Ramsey: (smiling) "They are wrong, I don't know what else to say. How else do you say no except no. No means no." (Program showing background shots of Patsy Ramsey happily playing with dog in yard) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) Over the last several months we have spent a great deal of time with the Ramsey's, these favorite villains of the tabloids. (Program showing background shots of John Ramsey struggling to turn a jeep around in a yard) John Ramsey: (In jeep) "These big ole tires make this hard to turn" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "And I have seen them in a way few others have" (Program showing background shots of movers packing furniture in Ramsey's Atlanta home) John Ramsey: (In garage holding fishing tackle box) "Fishing box, that hasn't been used in a long time." (Program showing background shots of Patsy packing items in kitchen) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) On this day just this past summer...." John Ramsey: (In garage holding flight bag) "Flight bag" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) : " John and Patsy Ramsey are moving." Patsy Ramsey: (smiling) "Life has never been the same and it has basically ruined us financially and emotionally and everything else. We're scaling back." Patsy Ramsey: (Carrying box out of house indicating contents) "My wedding dress" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) : "They are selling their million dollar home in Atlanta and moving to a smaller townhouse just down the road." (Program showing background shots of John playing with barking dog next to empty pet cage in empty living room) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) : "John Ramsey, once the head of a billion dollar Software Company hasn't worked for four years while Patsy has quite literally been fighting for her life." Patsy Ramsey: (Showing her paintings) "This is my self portrait (pointing to area of painting) Here's my broken heart, my tears." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) : "In a rear unguarded moment........" Patsy Ramsey: (Showing her paintings) "I thought I would paint during my cancer treatment but I was just so sick I couldn't do it." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Without her makeup, without her wig, without even her eyebrows drawn in, you can clearly see the damage left by the return of her cancer." Erin Moriarty: "How did you find out?" Patsy Ramsey: "I was back in February for my annual checkup" (Program showing background shots of Patsy in house trying to get dog to come to her) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Nine years ago Patsy learned she had stage IV ovarian cancer. She made what she hoped was a full recovery but earlier this year went through depilating chemotherapy." (Program showing background shots of Patsy on sofa hugging dog) Erin Moriarty: "You lost your hair...." Patsy Ramsey: (smiling) "Yeah, its growing back. My eyebrows are growing back. (Patsy bats her eye lashes) It all comes out but you know what, it's a very little thing to worry about." (Program showing background shots of from December 1996 showing JonBenet body being carried from the Ramsey Boulder home by police) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "In fact Patsy Ramsey has much bigger concerns. Almost from the moment the body of their six year old daughter, JonBenet was discovered, Boulder police believed John and Patsy killed their daughter and then staged a kidnapping complete with a rambling two and a half page ransom note to cover it up." John Ramsey: "They have never investigated this case ....other than to investigate the family. They have never investigated this case." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Even though a Boulder grand jury in 1999 located all the evidence decided not to indict the Ramsey's, the police say they haven't ruled out other theories, to this day the Ramsey's remain the prime suspects as you will see in this video tape obtained exclusively by 48 Hours." Lyn Wood ??: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition of Mark Beckner) "You have not classified any individual as a suspect?" Mark Beckner: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition) "Publicly correct." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "While testifying under oath in a civil case just this last November, Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner admitted what had never before said publicly." Mark Beckner: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition) "Internally John and Patsy are considered suspects." Lyn Wood ??: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition of Mark Beckner) "Both of them?" Mark Beckner: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition) "Yes" Lyn Wood ??: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition of Mark Beckner) "Are considered to have probably been involved in the death of their daughter?" Mark Beckner: (November 26, 2001 10:29 civil case deposition) "Probability, yes" Erin Moriarty: "Why do you think you remain probably the prime suspects in the eyes of the Boulder Police?" Patsy Ramsey: "I asked Mark Beckner that. I came closer to him in the face than I am to you Erin and I said, 'Tell me what it is that makes you think I killed my beautiful precious child?' and he said 'well, well it's just a lot of little things.' I think he really doesn't know." (Program playing church bells and showing background shots from the funeral and the Ramsey's walking out the door of the church and men carrying the casket) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But because police didn't have enough evidence, sources within the investigation tells 48 hours, the police tried to physiologically break the Ramsey's hoping one or both would confess." John Ramsey: "It was a strategy that was put in place to bring immense pressure on us to break us." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "That strategy by some in the department claim John Ramsey included a relentless campaign of leaks that most lead to the nations tabloids that had a devastated effect on the public opinion." Lin Wood: "They convinced the public of guilt." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Lyn Wood is John and Patsy Ramsey's attorney" (Program showing background shots of tabloid magazine covers and printing presses) Lin Wood: "You couldn't go to buy groceries for your family without passing headlines that said John Ramsey had molested his first daughter. Absolutely false. Headlines that John and Patsy Ramsey were pornographers. Absolutely false. Headlines that they were devil worshipers. Absolutely false." (Program showing background shots of police hauling out evidence from the Boulder house in Boulder, Colorado) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The Ramsey's believe that the Boulder Police still to this day continue to ignore evidence John Ramsey: "It's frustrating; it's disappointing, eh.. It makes me angry." Erin Moriarty: "You say it makes you angry but you don't seem angry. Do you think that also hurt you in the eyes of the public?" John Ramsey: (smiling) "Well, we're not soap opera actors. I suppose if I was an actor I could act really angry but I'm not. That's who I am. It's what you see and I'm angry (slapping one fist into palm of other hand) this is angry for me." (Program showing background shots again of the 1997 vigil for JonBenet in Boulder Colorado) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Angry because John Ramsey says because a killer or killers remain free." John Ramsey: "What I do know is that we didn't kill our daughter so let's look at the rest of the picture guys." ****************************************** Commercial break......(Program cuts to police interrogation tapes) Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "My life has been hell from that day forward" Announcer: "The police interrogation of the Ramsey's you've never seen before." ****************************************** Detective Lou Smit: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) "Today's date is June 23, 1998 at Broomfield Police Station. The time is approximately 9:04am" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "A year and a half after JonBenet was murdered, John and Patsy Ramsey sitting in separate rooms at the same time were questioned by Boulder authorities in a Colorado police station. These tapes have never before been seen publicly. " Detective Lou Smit: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) (talking to John Ramsey) "There's been a lot of speculation by a lot of people that maybe you didn't know anything about the murder, but maybe Patsy did." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Questioning John is Lou Smit, a homicide detective then working for the DA's office." John Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) "That's preposterous. I mean, Patsy.. eh... loves both her children dearly. But frankly, she and JonBenet were.... (long pause).... extremely close." Detective Tom Haney: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "A Christmas morning photo" Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "em eh" Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "of the kids" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Detective Tom Haney questioned Patsy who was taking medication for both anxiety and depression." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (Patsy puts her hands over her face and starts crying) Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "If I told you right now that we have trace evidence that appears to link you to the death of JonBenet, what would you tell me?" Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "That is totally impossible. Go re-test." Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "How is that impossible?" Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "I did not kill my child. I didn't have.... a thing to do with it." Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "And I'm not talking you know somebody's guess or some rumor or some story......" Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "I don't care what you're talking about." Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "I'm talking about scientific evidence." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "I don't give a flying flip how scientific it is. Go back to the damn drawing board. I didn't do it. John Ramsey didn't do it. And we didn't have a clue of anybody who did do it. So we all got to start working together from this day forward to try to find out who the hell did it." Erin Moriarty: "48 Hours investigates has acquired these tapes hours upon hours of footage that take you inside the investigation. While the tapes show how strongly the prosecutors believe John and Patsy Ramsey were responsible for the death of their daughter frankly there isn't a lot of physical evidence that links them so questioners looked for inconsistencies and focused on minute details from the crime scene." Detective Lou Smit: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) (talking to John Ramsey) "What have you heard about pineapple?" John Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) "Well, we were asked, did JonBenet eat pineapple because apparently it was found in her system. I think part of the question was, when did she eat it? When she got home? And I'm sure she didn't because she was absolutely sound sleep." (Program showing background shots of photos of JonBenet and then clip of autopsy report showing she had pineapple in her system) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The Ramsey's told police that JonBenet had gone straight to bed that night and had not eaten at home but autopsy report did find undigested pineapple in JonBenet's stomach and police discovered fingerprints on a bowl left in the families dining room on the morning after the murder." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "I didn't put the bowl there. Okay? I did not put the bowl there. I would not do this set-up like this." Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "But okay, let's go back to your line of reasoning here....now talk to me." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "Okay." Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "Look at me. If they're not yours and they're not John's then they would be somebody else's." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "Right" Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "Now, I'm telling you they are not somebody else's. Those prints belong to one of the two of you." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "They do? You're sure?" Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) (shakes he head yes) Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "Well, I don't know. I did not put that there." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The finger prints on the bowl are Patsy's suggesting she's the one who gave the fruit to her daughter but if Patsy did give it to JonBenet and is lying about it then investigators wondered could she be lying about everything." Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "You know, sometimes the simplest, most obscure little thing could be so significant." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "Right. (Quiet pause while Patsy looking at photo). I did not feed JonBenet pineapple. Okay? So I don't know how it got in her stomach and where this bowl of pineapple came from. I can't recall putting that there. " (Program showing background shots of all the video tapes of the interrogation) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "After three days of questioning, the interrogation in 1998 ended and even though the Ramsey's were not indicted, Boulder authorities continued to believe they were guilty so in August of 2000 prosecutors flew to Atlanta where the Ramsey's were living asking to see and hear new evidence. 48 Hours has also acquired those tapes." (Program switches to views of the Atlanta meeting August 29, 2000) Kane ?? : (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) "If ever there was going to be an intruder on trial the defense is going to be that you did it." John Ramsey: (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) "I remember that but dah, but I am not here to prove my innocence, I'm here to find the killer of my daughter" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "With John, prosecutors asked questions mostly about leads he had uncovered on other suspects but with Patsy interrogators were more accusatory suggesting they had new evidence, clothing fibers that would tie her directly to the murder." Bruce Levin: (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) "You were shown photographed wearing a red out..." Patsy Ramsey: (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) "It's kind of a black and red and gray fleece" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Bruce Levin of the Boulder's district attorneys office led the questioning" Bruce Levin: (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) "Mrs. Ramsey, I have scientific evidence from forensic scientists that say there are fibers in the paint tray that match your red jacket" (Program showing background shots of paint tray, garrote and hair stuck in rope) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The paint tray is significant because a brush from it along with some rope was used to strangle and sexually abuse JonBenet. " Bruce Levin : (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) (Patsy was smiling through all of this) "We believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, was found on the blanket she was wrapped in, was found on the duct tape that was found on the mouth. I have no evidence from any scientist that suggest that those fibers are from any source other than your red jacket." Lin Wood: (Atlanta meeting taped August 29, 2000 9:34am) "Well, come on, what other sources did they test." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Patsy's attorney, Lin Wood asked prosecutors to produce the evidence and when they wouldn't he refused to let Patsy go on the record. But she did go on the record with us." Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Patsy) "What do you think about these fibers?" Patsy Ramsey: "After John discovered the body and she was brought to the living room. I laid eyes on her; I knelt down and hugged her. But I was, had my whole body on her body. My sweater fibers or whatever I had on that morning are going to transfer to her clothing. " Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "In all the questioning, the prosecutors focused more on Patsy than John following their belief that she was the killer." Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "JonBenet got up and somebody in that house legally, lawfully, in that house, one of the three of you, also happens to be up or gets up because she makes noise and, there is some discussion or something happens, there's an accident, somebody........." Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "You're going down the wrong path, buddy." Detective Tom Haney (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) (talking to Patsy Ramsey) "Okay, somebody accidentally or somebody gets upset over bedwetting. That's one of the things that's been proposed, okay?" Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "Didn't happen. If she got up in the night and ran into somebody, it was somebody there that wasn't supposes to be there. I don't know what transpired after that, whether it was an accident, intentional, premeditated or what not but it was not one of her three family members that were also in that house. Period. End of statement." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "These tapes don't always show the Ramsey's at their best but remarkably it was the Ramsey's who made them available saying they want all the information on this case to be out in the open. As for the Boulder Police and prosecutors, they denied repeated requests from 48 Hours to discuss these tapes or any of the issues we're raising tonight. Their only comment on the Ramsey murder investigation is 'no comment'" Patsy Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Haney/DeMuth) "I mean I appreciate being here. I appreciate it. It's very hard to be here but it's a damn site harder sitting at home in Atlanta Georgia wondering every second what you guys are doing out here. Have you found anything? Are we any closer? Is the guy out here watching my house? Is my son safe? My life has been hell from that day forward and I want nothing more than to find out who is responsible for this." (Program showing background shots of Lou Smit and John Ramsey in June 1998 interrogating tape) Male Narrator: "You just saw this man interrogate the Ramsey's." Lou Smit: "As a detective, I'm looking for clues" Male Narrator: "Wait until you hear what he has to say about the case now." Lou Smit: "They may not like what I'm going to say but I'm going to say it" ****************************************** Lesley Stahl: "You have seen and hear John and Patsy's denials. You seen for the first time how they handled themselves under police interrogation. But what story does the physical evidence tell in the murder of their daughter JonBenet? According to some detectives it's a far different story than what the public has been lead to believe. Once again, here's Erin Moriarty." (Program showing background shots of Ramsey former house in Boulder, Colorado, the basement stairway, the basement call and the windowless room) Lou Smit: "This murder was not conducted upstairs in a nice little bedroom. This murder was conducted in the basement and it was very vicious and during the murder somebody sexually assaulted JonBenet. This was all done in the deepest part of that house." (Program showing background shots of Lou Smit's house in Colorado Springs, Colorado) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "One hundred miles away from where JonBenet Ramsey was murdered in a modest home in Colorado Springs" Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Lou Smit) "How often do you think about this case now?" Lou Smit: "Probably everyday" (Program showing background shots of inside of Lou Smit's house in Colorado Springs, Colorado) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Sixty seven year old Lou Smit works everyday alone trying to find her killer." Lou Smit: "I keep a picture of her in my wallet." (Program showing background shots of inside Lou Smit taking picture out of his wallet) Erin Moriarty: "You have JonBenet in your wallet?" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "This is the same Lou Smit you saw interrogating John Ramsey back in 1998" Detective Lou Smit: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) (talking to John Ramsey) "And I concentrate my investigation on you" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "A veteran detective." (Program showing background shots of Lou Smit showing all his plaques on his wall at his house) Lou Smit: (pointing to plaques on wall) "This one is the homicides I worked on" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "With such an impressive record for solving homicides, the Boulder District Attorney hired him on the Ramsey murder case." Detective Lou Smit: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) (talking to John Ramsey) "I have to stick up for the Boulder Police Department a little bit." Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Lou Smit) "When you first started who did you think killed JonBenet Ramsey?" Lou Smit: "My gut feelings were the parents did it" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But as Smit followed the evidence and questioned the Ramsey's the more he became convinced that the police were focusing on the wrong suspects." Lou Smit: "John Ramsey came through very very sincere." John Ramsey: (June 1998 police interrogation tape - interviewed by Smit/Kane) "So when I first found her, I was like thank god I found her." Lou Smit: "When I left that interview I had no doubts in my mind that he had nothing to do with the death of his daughter." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Smit quit the investigation in disgusted" Lou Smit: "They hired me as a detective to look at this case. They may not like what I say but I'm going to say it. I don't think the Ramsey's did it and I think they should start looking for people who did." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Smit says it's in the evidence. The autopsy report, the intricate garrote used as a murder weapon, the strange marks on JonBenet's back and most importantly the information found in this DNA report." Lou Smit: "As a detective I'm looking for clues" (Program showing background shots of former Ramsey home in Boulder Colorado) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "What is it that convinces Lou Smit that someone else other than the Ramsey's killed their six year old daughter? First and foremost the brutality of the crime. Nearly every expert who has seen the autopsy report agrees on one thing. This was not an accidental death. JonBenet Ramsey was grueling and deliberately murdered. I need to warn you that what you are about to see disturbing." Erin Moriarty (Talking to Lou Smit) "What do we see here?" (Program showing background shots of the garrote) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "JonBenet was strangled not once says Smit but twice with this intricately made device called a garrote that had to be made by the killer during the murder." Lou Smit: "You see hair right inside the windings of that cord. JonBenet's hair." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "It's a device says Smit that was not left there for show. Whoever killed JonBenet used the garrote to strangle her." Lou Smit: "That shows a very brutal death. Notice how bright red that is. I'm being very clinical here. That is bright red. That means she was alive when that was pressed into her neck that hard." (Program showing background shots of Smit's PowerPoint presentation and JonBenet's body) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "JonBenet was not only alive, Smit believes she was fighting for her life. There were marks that look a lot like scratches on her neck" Lou Smit: "She did have her own DNA under her fingernails. I'm pretty sure that's a scratch to get that off. I think she was struggling then." (Program showing background shots of windowless room in Ramsey Boulder house) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "At some point the child was then hit with such force it crushed her skull but it wasn't over. Shortly before she died investigators believe she was sexually assaulted with a piece of the paint brush from the garrote." Lou Smit: "There is no motive for the parent to do that." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The evidence says Smit simply does not support the popular theory that the Ramsey's struck their daughter then tried to cover it up." (Program showing background shots of paint tray) Lou Smit: "It's not a mother waking up in the middle of the night and saying opps I think I hurt my child, opps I got to bring her downstairs and fashion one of these things then I'm going to put it around her neck and I'm going to tighten it a couple times while she's struggling. Now if you want to believe that, go ahead, I can't say this on the air but that's bullshit." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But what about the fibers from Patsy Ramsey's jacket that police say were in the paint tray and on the sticky side of duct tape covering JonBenet's mouth" Erin Moriarty: "Is there a fact that there were fibers consistent with Patsy Ramsey's jacket incrementing?" Lou Smit: "Sure." Erin Moriarty: "But does that shake your faith that the Ramsey's were not involved?" Lou Smit: "No, you just can't rely on fiber evidence because fibers could come off the jacket or something similar to the jacket." (Program showing background shots of blanket and duct tape in windowless room) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Once more says Smit there were also dozens of unidentified fibers that didn't come from the Ramsey's and Smit is unaware of a single case where a parent used a garrote like this to kill a child." Lou Smit: "This is one of the best clues left behind by the killer. This shows what's going on in his mind. This is a sexual device. He's a pedophile who's a sexual sadist. That's what Lou Smit's looking for." (Program showing background shots of a car driving around looking for suspects) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Smits not the only one" (Program showing background shots of Ollie Gray and John Sangustin driving around in his car looking for suspects) Ollie Gray: "There are 57 pages of names that have come out of the tip files." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Colorado private detective Ollie Gray and his partner John Sangustin were hired by the Ramsey's two years ago." (Program showing background shots of rear of Ramsey former Boulder house) John Sangustin: (Pointing toward the house) "That's JonBenet's room on the second level" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Even when the Ramsey's ran out of money, Ollie and John stayed on the job" Ollie Gray: "We probably do something on it two or three times a week." Erin Moriarty: "Even though you're not getting paid?" Ollie Gray: "Sure" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "They became convinced of the Ramsey's' innocence after seeing this lab report." (Program showing background shots of DNA lab report dated January 15, 1997) Ollie Gray: "I acquired a document that you see right here names John and Patsy Ramsey as suspects was submitted for analysis reference DNA" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Days after JonBenet was murdered, her parents' were asked to give DNA samples to the Boulder police. " Erin Moriarty: (Talking to John and Patsy Ramsey) "You have given samples to the police?" Patsy Ramsey: "Absolutely" John Ramsey: "Absolutely, blood, hair, we've given them everything they asked for." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Their DNA was compared to foreign DNA found under their daughter's fingernails and in her panties, which may have been left by the killer." Erin Moriarty: (Talking to the Ramsey's) "Does any of that DNA match anyone in the Ramsey family?" Ollie Gray: "No, this analysis eliminates the Ramsey's" Patsy Ramsey: "If our DNA had matched they would have arrested us in a New York minute and don't ever think they wouldn't have" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "If not the Ramsey's, then who killed JonBenet?" (Program showing background shots of Ramsey back yard by window grate) Lou Smit: "This is how I believe the killer got in." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Retired homicide detective Lou Smit was still working on the official investigation when he concluded a stranger came into the Ramsey house" Lou Smit: "He opened the grate and he went in" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "and killed their six year old daughter." (Program showing background shots of open basement window and grate) Lou Smit: "There are three windows there. The center one that was open, look real closely to the one on the left. Your going to see leaves and debris pressed right up against the window. And the one again in the center.. No leaves or debris." Erin Moriarty: "Which says?" (Program showing background shots of basement window with suitcase below window) Lou Smit: "That window was open. Directly below that open window you have a suitcase, directly around that suitcase you have leaves and debris from that window well around that suitcase. Also you'll see if you look very closely, you'll see a mark goes right down the wall." Erin Moriarty: (Pointing at photo of wall by window) "Right here" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "A scuff mark that Smit believes was left from someone climbing in or climbing out" Erin Moriarty: "And you can fit through that window?" (Program showing background shots of Smit standing suitcase and climbing out basement window) Lou Smit: "Oh without any problem" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "In fact he has as you can see in this video as part of his investigation." Lou Smit: "It's much easier to go out that window if you stand on something. You put the suitcase in front, you step on the suitcase, right out into the window well, lift the grate and you're gone. It's that easy." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But why would an intruder kill JonBenet and leave the bazaar two and half page ransom note with paper and pen that belonged to Patsy? Boulder Police believe that Patsy used it to make it look like an intruder killed JonBenet." Erin Moriarty: "But if someone had been targeting JonBenet Ramsey wouldn't he at least bring the paper and pencil to write this ransom note, I mean....?" Lou Smit: "They probably wouldn't bring it in. Why bring something in that can be traced back to your house where you have actual the pen and the ink and you have the paper right there that it was written on." Erin Moriarty: "But you can't count on finding that in the house" Lou Smit: "Can't count on it. Most houses have that." Erin Moriarty: "No expert could eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the ransom note writer. That's damning isn't it?" Lou Smit: "No not at all. You're always going to have similarities in handwriting. To sit down and write a note like that, with all of those details in there after brutally killing your daughter, you never done that before, come on, give me a break." (Program showing background shots of marks on JonBenet) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But more than any other evidence, Smit believes these small marks left on JonBenet's face and back prove an intruder killed her." Lou Smit: "The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the killer had a stun gun." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "A stun gun, an electrical weapon, which was used to incapacitate the little girl in order to move her to the basement. Smit believes only an intruder would need to use one. " Lou Smit: "There is no reason at all for the parents to have used a stun gun to help stage the murder of their daughter." Erin Moriarty: "Was there any indication that the Ramsey's ever owned a stun gun?" Lou Smit: "There was nothing to indication that the Ramsey's ever owned a stun gun" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "What is significant about these injuries, says Smit is that those on the child's face and those on her back appear to be an equal distant apart". Lou Smit: "They are approximately 3.5 centimeters" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Much like the prongs of this stun gun" Lou Smit: "And they are 3.5 centimeters apart." Dr. Michael Dobersen: "And if I push this" (Program showing Dr. Michael Dobersen demonstrating the stun gun) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Dr. Michael Dobersen" Dr. Michael Dobersen: "You can see the electricity arching" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The coroner for neighboring Arapahoe County, also believes the marks on JonBenet were left by a stun gun." Dr. Michael Dobersen: "What we have to do is match up the injuries with the weapon." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "And to prove it, he used one on the skin of an anesthetized pig." (Program showing photos of the stun gunned pig and marks on JonBenet) Erin Moriarty: "What am I seeing on the left?" Lou Smit: "What you are seeing on the left, is you're seeing the actual injury on the back of JonBenet, the marks are similar in size and shape and color and they are a certain distant apart.. And the pig too, you see marks that were left on the skin of the pig." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "While there are some differences, both Dobersen and Smit believe the experiment confirms a stun gun was used." Dr. Michael Dobersen: "If it's not a stun gun I would like to know what it is." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Three other pathologists agreed but the Boulder Police are relying instead on this man's opinion." (Program showing Erin Moriarty talking with forensic pathologist, Dr. Werner Spitz) Erin Moriarty: "How sure are you that it's not a stun gun?" Dr. Werner Spitz: "Well I'm a hundred percent sure because stun gun injuries don't look that way." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Dr. Werner Spitz, a nationally known pathologist who has worked on major cases including the assassination of J.F. Kennedy." (Program showing photos of the stun gunned pig and marks on JonBenet) Erin Moriarty: "This was now on her and this was done on a pig skin." Dr. Werner Spitz: "Are you telling me that this looks to you like the other one, the one that JonBenet has? They don't look like that to me at all. A stun gun injury is an electrical burn, it's a burn essentially. And these don't look like burns." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Instead, Spitz believes the large dark mark on JonBenet's face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing" Dr. Werner Spitz: "You know like the snaps they have on blue jeans for instance. If you look at this one below the ear, this thing here. If you look at it closely with a magnify glass you will see within this brownish mark is a boat shaped structure which is missing with any of the other injuries." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Unfortunately with only photographs to go by no expert, not Dr. Spitz and not Dr. Dobersen can be one hundred percent sure." (Program showing Moriarty talking with Smit and Dobersen) Erin Moriarty: "Wouldn't that have been or the best way to know or coming the closest to knowing is if you could have exhumed the body and line up a stun gun and see if it matches those injuries?" Lou Smit: "Sure, I believe that would have been the most accurate way to do it." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Lou Smit admits that in the months following JonBenet's death investigators considered going to court to have her body exhumed but decided against it." John Ramsey: "We had buried our child, she was in peace, that was just a horrid thought" Erin Moriarty: "But John that might have been the one way to know for sure, that could have resolved the whole issue because if a stun gun was used it was not the parents." John Ramsey: "Certainly and we've got people who told us who know what they are doing that with 95% medical certainty that a stun gun was used. No question." Erin Moriarty: "But you would have known with a hundred percent with certainty if you had exhumed the body, as tough as that would have been." John Ramsey: "That's my child you're talking, not a body, it's different." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Still Smit believes a stun gun is the key to JonBenet's murder." Lou Smit: "I see the killer at the end of the intruder path" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "And he's searching for the killer or killers who own one." Lou Smit: "The person who did this if we're right, he's still out there." ****************************************** Commercial break..... Announcer: "We'll show you evidence the police ignored for years and should they have taken a closer look at this man?" ****************************************** Lesley Stahl: "Police in Boulder Colorado should have taken a closer look at but they haven't say the critics because police remain focused on JonBenet's parents as the prime suspects in her murder. Erin Moriarty has been following up on several leads persuade by the Ramsey's investigators and focuses in now on one man with a frightening past." (Program showing background shots of the 1997 vigil again for JonBenet in Boulder Colorado) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "On a cold December night that marked the one year anniversary of JonBenet's murder, dozen of mourners showed up for a candle light vigil outside the Ramsey home. One man in particular caught investigator Lou Smit's eye." Lou Smit: "Criminals do return to the scene and that was the anniversary and that puts him right there at the Ramsey house a year later." (Program showing background shots of different photos of Gary Oliva) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "He's Gary Oliva, a thirty eight year old a convicted sex offender from Oregon who lives in Boulder." Lou Smit: "He definitely is a sex offender for assaulting another seven year old girl in Oregon; he spent time in prison for that." (Program showing background shots of inside of Ramsey home) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Smit is convinced that a pedophile came into the Ramsey home and killed their daughter." Lou Smit: "On my computer I probably got 25 good leads and I probably have another 50 pages of other leads to follow." (Program showing background shots of the 1997 vigil again for JonBenet in Boulder Colorado) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Among the files he's keeping on sex offenders in Boulder, Gary Oliva's stands out. In 1991, the year after he sexually assaulted the little girl, police reports say he tried to strangle his mother with a telephone cord." (Program showing background shots of upstairs inside Ramsey Boulder house, hall, JonBenet's bedroom and spiral staircase) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "In December 1996, Oliva may have been just only few houses from JonBenet's bedroom window." (Program showing background shots of Ollie Gray and John Sangustine in alley) Erin Moriarty: "This is the alley behind?" Ollie Gray: "This the alley that runs behind the Ramsey's home, leads into the back yard, the garage area" John Sangustine: "It was not uncommon for JonBenet and Burke to ride their bicycles around the alley way." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "John Sangustine and Ollie Gray, the Ramsey's private investigators say that Oliva frequented these buildings owned by a local church" Ollie Gray: "A lot of transient people come here for food and to pick up their mail." Erin Moriarty: "But why is this relevant?" Ollie Gray: "The Ramsey home is what, ten houses?" Erin Moriarty: "Right up this alley." Ollie Gray: "Right up this alley." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Why do they believe he was in the neighborhood the night JonBenet was murdered?" (Program showing background shots of different photos of Gary Oliva) Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "He called me on the phone." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Because of this man and a phone call he got from Gary Oliva." Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "He related to me that he had done something horrible." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "He asked us to identify him only as Michael, Gary Oliva's best friend from high school" Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "He mentioned he was in Boulder in the phone call." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "The call Michael says came just days after the Ramsey murder. Gary told him he had hurt a child." Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "He was just sobbing like you never heard a grown man sob or cry before in your life and I knew it was serious." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "So serious that Michael living in a nearby state called the Boulder police." Erin Moriarty: "What made you connect that phone call and your friend and the murder in Colorado?" Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "The things he told me in the phone call .... the cassette tapes." (Program showing background shots of cassette tapes) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "These cassette tapes." Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "Look how many tapes, I've got four times as many tapes as this." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "After high school, Michael and Gary thought a fun way to keep in touch was through audio tapes" Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "I'd go to Carl's Diner (??) and interview somebody, he'd go to a store and interview a macaroon cookie, stupid stuff." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But in 1989 Gary's tapes, once amusing changed dramatically" Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "The tapes got darker, a song with lyrics I can't repeat, more depraved and sicker. On this tape it sounds like he is killing an animal. It would turn my stomach. On this tape he talks about necrophilia. This ain't about a macaroon cookie anymore. This isn't funny anymore. On this tape you have....." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "What you're about to hear on this tape according to Michael is Oliva's at his worst pretending he is left alone to baby-sit a friend's daughter." Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "Oh you can't play this on camera" Erin Moriarty: "Why?" Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "Oh he's talking about raping a little girl on camera. Oh this one makes me sick" (Program playing cassette tapes that Gary Oliva sent to Michael) Gary Oliva (From Michaels cassette tapes) "How are you doing Roonette?" Little girl (From Michaels cassette tapes) "Hi" Gary Oliva From Michaels cassette tapes) "Why don't you come over here and sit on my lap and let me touch your back, how do you like that?" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "On another tape he talks about hurting a child" Gary Oliva (From Michaels cassette tapes) "Things I do like making bacon strips out of little girls, I'm into it you know, being a sick dog" Erin Moriarty: "And this wasn't a joke?" Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "These tape are not a joke at all. If you listen to these cassette tapes you got to do something if you're a human being. I mean you have to." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Michael said he left all his information on the Boulder police tip line" Michael: (Gary Oliva's best friend from high school, talking to Erin Moriarty) "And told them about the cassette tapes. I told them about the phone call. I mentioned I had handwriting samples" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "What did Boulder Police do with this tip? Nothing. According to Lou Smit, the police didn't follow up on 95% of the more than 3,000 phone tips that came in. In Oliva's case, they didn't investigate him until nearly four years after JonBenet Ramsey's death, when he was caught with drugs and guess with what else? A stun gun." (Program shows Gary Oliva in Boulder County jail being interviewed by 48 Hours) Erin Moriarty: "Did you ever use that stun gun on a child?" Gary Oliva: "No" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Oliva, who is wanted in Oregon for parole violations, turned himself into the Boulder Police two weeks ago." Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Gary Oliva) "Did you hurt or kill JonBenet Ramsey?" Gary Oliva: "No" (as he shakes his head no then he turned facing directly into the camera and repeats) "No, I didn't" Erin Moriarty: "Didn't you tell your friend you were attracted to little girls?" Gary Oliva: "I don't think I want to answer that." Erin Moriarty: "Did you live in Boulder at the time JonBenet was killed?" Gary Oliva: "Yeah" Erin Moriarty: "Just down the street?" Gary Oliva: "Yeah" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "While Oliva says he doesn't remember making the disturbing audio tapes, what he will admit to is an obsession with JonBenet. " Gary Oliva: "I believe she came to me after she was killed and revealed herself to me." (Program cameras pan over to view a Boulder police sitting on a chair taking notes on Oliva interview) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "As it turns out we are not the only ones interested in Oliva. Police officers showed up to take notes" Alex Hunter: "I would be concerned if any lead was not taken to fully ground." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Former Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter said police tried to follow up on pedophiles but admits that early on the force was clearly overwhelmed." Erin Moriarty: "Didn't your office have to tell police officers you got to look at these other leads, that you can't just focus on the Ramsey's?" Alex Hunter: (Talking to 48 Hours) "Well it was said, probably not in quite that language but yes." (Program cameras show Oliva being taken back to jail and asking for a cigarette) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Why didn't authorities take a sex offender like Oliva more serious" Just this week Boulder Police said Oliva is not a suspect. Sources say his DNA doesn't match evidence at the scene." John Ramsey: "Nor does ours" Erin Moriarty: (Talking to John and Patsy Ramsey) "What do you think of that?" Patsy Ramsey: "I think it's a double standard, don't you?" Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Alex Hunter) "Is it fair to say that the state of the evidence right now, there just isn't enough to convict the Ramsey's?" Alex Hunter: "There isn't enough to convict anybody beyond a reasonable doubt." Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "But Alex Hunter believes that some day this case can be solved but he doesn't think Lou Smit is the man to do it." Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Alex Hunter) "Do you feel that Lou Smit's feelings for the Ramsey’s clouded his judgment?" Alex Hunter: "I think a little bit" (Program cameras show Lou Smit walking into Church and church music in background) Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Hunter believes Smit, a devote Christian crossed the line when working as a DA investigator he prayed with the Ramsey's" (Program cameras show Lou Smit getting ready to sit in an empty Church) Erin Moriarty: (Talking to Lou Smit) "Do you think you have gotten too close to the Ramsey's?" Lou Smit: "Well let's put it this way, I don't think I did. If the Ramsey's did this and I found out, I'd be the first in the line at the Boulder Police Department" Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "JonBenet Ramsey would have been twelve years old this year and in six grade. Instead she is buried in a Georgia cemetery while her brutal killer or killers go free." Lesley Stahl: "To admit mistakes were made at the crime scene that makes the case harder to solve. That's been a frustration for investigators who suspect her parents, John and Patsy Ramsey and for others who believe it had to be someone else and yet even with all the frustration and despite the passage of time nearly six years nearly everyone working the case agrees on one thing. They say there is still enough good physical evidence to make this a solvable crime and there is still good reason to believe that eventually there will be justice for JonBenet Ramsey. End of CBS 48 Hours show.

TO CATCH A THIEF Documenting a LIE, a THEFT and ALTERING DOCUMENTS

The ACandyRose© Internet Subculture is an archive web site for documentation on the history of the JonBenet Ramsey murder case and those following the investigation of the case via the Internet. All information has been accessed from public domains and/or quotes use under the "fair use rule of copyright law." This web site is non-profit. ~~~~~~ 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 ACandyRose©

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