DAVE LUCAS SHOW - WROW Albany, New York

December 30, 1998

Pam Paugh Guest and Jameson (aka Susan Bennett)

Dave Lucas: Lance Matthews is here with us and Lance will tell you a little bit about that and later on in the program. We also have a visit from J.T.Colfax a little bit later on. Right now we are on the line with Pam Paugh. Pam is the sister of Patsy Ramsey, welcome back to the program.

Pam Paugh: Thank you.

Lance Matthews: Hi Pam, eh, somebody out there in Internet land has a question to direct right at you and that was they were wondering the last time you were in Boulder before JonBenet was killed.

Pam Paugh: The last time I was in Boulder prior to that December would have been, let me think, October 9th through 11th. I was there ah, it was a surprise weekend. John had planned a surprise forth birthday party for Patsy. And my entire family was there. We flew in for it.

Lance Matthews: Okay, I was wondering if I could go back to my line of questioning. I was just really curious on some things that were said in the media, or by you to the media, I really don't even know this, I just, it's just rumors that are floating around and it's just things that have made me really really wonder. Did you say publicly that you know who the killer was?

Pam Paugh: I have a really good feeling.

Lance Matthews: And that you have even met the killer socially since the murder. I can't even imagine that , that must have been awful.

Pam Paugh: Oh no, I have never said that.

Lance Matthews: Oh

Pam Paugh: But I understand there is some questions when I said that when I went to the Grand Jury I was going to be prepared with some facts, some incidence in my own timeline about who I suspect and I guess some of the Internet buzz as I am told because I am not Internet active thinks that I was going to use Jameson's Timeline.

Lance Matthews: I thought that was pretty hilarious myself, I was already explained that but you can explain that to the listeners.

Pam Paugh: With all due respect to Jameson and I understand she runs quite a factual timeline but I have never seen it. This is something that is totally a timeline within the family. Place we were, people we were with, things I head said, cutting comments. Things of that nature.

Lance Matthews: Yeah, Jameson's Timeline is indeed a wonder on the Internet. Now you had ah, just said you were bringing a timeline, your timeline basically and not Jameson's?

Pam Paugh: No not Jameson's, I have never seen her timeline. It will be my personal timeline about activities that happen within the family, with respect to our close family circle, etc. Things that I, at the time I knew there were things that weren't, they weren't acceptable and you brush them off and now of course in light of the fact that JonBenet was murdered, these things as you go back and look upon them they are very telling.

Lance Matthews: Is there anything you can share with the listening audience today that would be revealing more toward your sisters innocents that you are willing to and can share right now.

Pam Paugh: I can tell you that were that on more than one occasions there were snide remarks made about the fact that Patsy must be so perfect that she even beat death. There were snide comments about her exuberance and her beauty. And these were made in a cutting way though. There were comments made about John's money. Although I don't know, they seem to be jealousy comments to me but I am not quite sure that I felt they were jealousy comments at the time but in light of this I think they were..

Lance Matthews: Why was JonBenet buried in a tiara and pageant gown?

Pam Paugh: Buried in a what?

Lance Matthews: A tiara and a pageant gown. She was in one of those pageant gowns when she was buried.

Pam Paugh: Well, you know I mean I certainly the world is not making judgement about hat

Lance Matthews: Oh they are making judgement just about everything.

Pam Paugh: Then I can understand there are people out there that don't have anything better to do than to do that. You know it is a very trying time. If you never walked in those shoes. You don't know what you would bury somebody with.

Lance Matthews: Once again the shoes. I couldn't agree, the shoes, the shoes, that would defiantly be the case and none of us have been in any of those situations. You of course are the sisters of Patsy who is in the middle of this, who is under the umbrella, who is the focus of all of this investigation as far as most of the media and Internet.

Pam Paugh: You know I don't know why we are still harping on that. Even Bill Ritter said the other night, he pretty plainly stated this grand jury, was not something Alex Hunter went into with a suspect or two suspects clearly in mind. This is a fact finding mission. He is going in there with evidently facts that they know. They are going in there with circumstantial questions and things about different people they have up on the suspect list and they are basically saying to the grand jury we have been in this for so long now that your fresh eyes can perhaps tell us what we need to go back and do and some of those things we are already seeing like coming to Georgia. I am sure the Grand jury was shocked when they learned this foreign DNA had been tested against Patsy John and Burke, no match and yet they hadn't even taken DNA from the rest of the family members except my dad and they lost that.

Lance Matthews: I just wanted to clarify something when you said you know who the killer was. Do you know specifically or do you know a profile of this person, you have it narrowed down in your own documents in your own way or if you know who this is.

Pam Paugh: I have it narrowed down.

Lance Matthews: To one, two people or just one person

Pam Paugh: I can't say anything more on that

Lance Matthews: Okay, no problem

Pam Paugh: I understand it, I mean if I could claim it for the world I would but that wouldn't serve JonBenet's justice for that purpose.

Lance Matthews: I understand but you know of course that is your sister, that is your niece were talking about. That is your sister who is under the umbrella of suspicion and her husband and if you know how can you not tell your sister who this is?

Pam Paugh: Who said I hadn't share it?

Lance Matthews: Oh, okay, that's good. I just assumed that that you had never discussed or shared the suspicion of who it actually it was. That is just what I heard across the grapevine. And of course like you said with the confusion about the timeline everything gets warped. It's my views on the media that ah, its pretty, I don't know, it is either one side or the other. It is like the Internet situation, there's Pro-ram forums, there's Anti-ram forums. I made the analogy the last time on the air the example that you take the exact same thread you post it up on WebbSleuths which is the pro-ram forums and at the end of the thread people be like, "yes, and that why they didn't kill their daughter." And then you put it over on a Justice Watch which is the Anti-ram forum basically and at the end of the same exact forum you have people saying, "Yes, and these are reasons why they did kill their daughter." And then you put it on the middle one…..

Pam Paugh: With all due respect to your listeners out there who spend hours and hours in those chat rooms and Timelines or whatever it is called, I don't know the lingo, it is like the old fashion gossip game, depending on who your talking to it goes down forty people and at the end at the forth person the story is totally different than what it began. And it goes from speculation from the first comment that posted to fact at the end. So I don't hold any credence there. What needs to be done is the information that has been gleamed from an evidentiary standpoint and people who where active in this family circle must hold the true keys to unlock this case and only going to the grand jury where those things can be brought up under oath in a factual setting will we be able to get to the end of this case. And my problem has always been this, there was not a full open investigation because I know on the 28th when I told the police I had concerns about John's plane, please go check the plane, make sure there is no bomb in it, oh we have already done that, you know in fact he won't be going anywhere. Well, if that's is not a statement of John Ramsey had something to do with it what is. So you can't tell me from the 28th to today something between then and now changed. They decided two days later that Patsy and John were involved in this and they have spent two years trying to stick round pegs into square holes and that is why there has been no results to this, that and the fact that the best guy they had to put on it was a street narcotics cop.

Lance Matthews: Which officer are you referring to?

Pam Paugh: Thomas

Lance Matthews: Thomas

Pam Paugh: Real nice guy but he stood in my parents kitchen and I said to him, I said, "Det.Thomas, can you give us any hope that we are getting closer," and he said, well, and Ron Gosage was standing beside him, he said, "Well I can tell you this, we don't know how long it will take, but you have to continue cooperate as you are. We know Patsy and John had nothing to do with this, we know Burke had nothing to do with this but who ever did know a hell of a lot about the inside workings of your family and it is going to take you people to help us unravel it.

Lance Matthews: I was just over in the chat room and I just took a peek and it is popping tonight and of course everybody has opinions on everything in this case and I just want to introduce somebody right now that definitely has opinions on this case and you mentioned how people collect information and that's like one of the good parts about the Internet is that a lot of people have collected a lot of good information. And one of my favorite sites for information is I guess the redd herring site is one of my favorites but on that note but somebody who has collected information from the very gate is with us here tonight, I believe you know her Pam, she has been a source for a lot of good documents and she's also moderator for what is known out in webland as a pro-Ramsey forums and with that, hi Jameson,

Jameson: Hi, thank you very much. I think it is going to be a little bit amazing to people that Pam Paugh and the Ramsey's themselves do not go on the net and have not accessed my timeline. I think that kind of proves that I don't work for these people. They are not checking my work. I would like to cover just a couple points. I have some notes here from the show so far, is that okay?

Lance Matthew: By all means Jams

Jameson: No ones wants this killer to get away with this. There is not anybody out there on either side of the fence that wants see JonBenet's killer go free. That goes for Linda, it goes for Pam like she said and I will say it also, if the evidence proves that John and Patsy had anything to do with this, ……. Mindy and John Andrew, their older children, their adults, their living on their own, Mindy's married, John Andrew living on his own, this is their baby sister, who went to a horrible tortures . There is no way these adults would cover for anyone including their parents and they certainly wouldn't leave their nine year old brother in the house. They have no doubts these people are innocent. I have no doubts. Patsy doesn't doubt John and John doesn't doubt Patsy. No matter what they say. You know the tabloids went and said in the beginning that Patsy was going to give John up any minute she's confessing cause she can't handle it anymore because she knows John did it. Then later on it came out it turned on Patsy and the tabloids started carrying stories like John wants to give up Patsy. ……….

okay, point two, It is not that the tabloids and the media are smearing the Ramsey's. The Ramsey family are strong like I just said but people who know the Ramsey's, whoever knew the Ramsey's are very supportive. They have lost a couple friends notably Fleet White, Priscilla White and Judith Phillips. We heard why Fleet and Priscilla are no longer friends. Judith Phillips was sent away from the Ramsey's at the beginning when this started. She was upset because she was sent away. She was sent away by Susan Stein. She was not upset by the Ramsey's themselves. She was upset about it. She is no longer their friends. However, none of these people has said anything about the history in the Ramsey house that points to them as homicidal maniac. Not one of them has said they had any doubts before this treating their children any thing that would make them turn into this.

Lance Matthews: But you know, and we have talked about this at length, it happens, it happens, there's people who have no violent history, no history of any perversion, any weird thing.......

Jameson: But one night in their life

Lance Matthews: Yes you do, it's called rage, and it happens to even a normal calm respectable family. There's rage and we all know the holiday season brings pressure on people.

Jameson: But your saying that two people in that house went nuts the same night with rage and covered for each other ..................and not make any mistakes, not make any, in two years of intense, I don't know how strong you think anybody is in this world but I couldn't hold up that long

Lance Matthews: I wouldn't say that both of them had the rage that night but obviously somebody did cover and you know as far as I am concerned I do think they have one hell of a blockage between them and the general public ah as in enough lawyers to make a baseball team ...... and I think that's.........

Jameson: The lawyers let these people go on national TV and give a a press conference, they allowed these people to go in for several interviews in no holes barred in May of 97 and June of 98, if these lawyers if they really believed the Ramseys were guilty. that there was evidence against them that they could trip themselves up they would not have said any interviews.

Lance Matthews: Now ah I recently saw the documentary by Tracy and Bynum had stated, ah, when they had, went they went to pick up the body from the Sheriff, and the Sheriff said they wanted to interview them before they release the body and Bynum basically said he kind of freaked out and said, no, no way are they going to go for this interview. You can't do that to them and basically Bynum blocked Burke, Patsy and John of giving an interview at that point when the murder was just a couple days old when it probably would have benefitted them and probably got them out from under this umbrella of suspicion.

Jameson: No it wouldn't have got them out from under the umbrella of suspicion, ....after the funeral it is document, it is documented in the news records and the family said something about interviews and the police department actually said, "no we're not interested it right now because you know the time is past when they could have been any help." That was ridiculous. I remember going of and saying, how can they be turning down interviews with the parents of the victims. I mean the parents of the victim and the police department is turning down a interviews. ...........he was issued an invitation to go to Atlanta to meet with the Ramseys in person, meet them face to face, eye to eye and talk about the case and chief get on the plane and go to Atlanta and said this is not a formal interview and I am not interested in doing it. You know the chief of police in charge of the homicide investigation refuse to talk to the parents of the murder victim

Lance Matthews: That was weird. And also you always have all the little facts, anytime I ever ask you question you've come with the answer right away and I love that because you seem to have all that

Jameson: An Encyclopedia .. ......the timeline

Lance Matthews: Can you do that for us?

Jameson: Its http://members.tripod.com/~jamesonTimeLine.htm ........... don't print it out cause it's over 2000 pages. Most of the important documents are there like the copy of the ransom note, the timeline is details and it goes before the murder and up to today.

Lance Matthews: I would like to clarify something that is a big questions. And everybody out there and I might as well ask it ... Pam your still on the line right

Pam, right

Lance Matthews: okay, the big questions Pam is whether you knew Pam before the murder. And also jameson you know what I am about to ask... because f something about names are you related in any way.

Jameson: you can start Pam

Pam: Answer to the first question is no. I had never heard of Jameson by either by that icon or her real name.

Jameson: Until how long ago Pam?

Pam: Oh god, a

Jameson: Not long

Pam: how long was it. I mean. How long ago was it , I can't remember when I first talked to you

Jameson: I think you first talk to me in Aug. and Sept. of this year because me made arrangements..

Pam: and I seen you once in person and talked to you on the phone and that's it and she has mostly called me to clarify things, or you know who was this name or what date did this happen or so forth for accuracy.. um and No she is not related to us in anyway.

Jameson: Thank you

Pam. And I guess I should say here John doesn't have anybody on a payroll with the exception their legal team and their investigative team and may I say that these people were not hired as a defense team. You don't hire a divorce lawyer to go head up a team to find the killer of your daughter. You hire people who knows the minds of criminals and those by definition would be defense attorneys.. they hired them, the got the investigators and put them all together and as things progressed they have been called the defense them but in no way shape or forum were they hired as a defense team.

Dave Lucas: okay ladies we are going to have to take a short break here...........

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