s-evidence-cigar-box.htm


	A Personal view of the Internet Subculture Surrounding the JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

This web page is part of a series covering found materials regarding individuals, items or events that apparently became part of what is commonly known as the vortex of the JonBenet Ramsey murder case Christmas night 1996. The webmaster of this site claims no inside official Boulder police information as to who has been interviewed, investigated, the outcome or what information is actually considered official evidence. These pages outline found material which can include but not limited to materials found in books, articles, the Internet, transcripts, depositions, legal documents, Internet discussion forums, graphics or photos, media reports, TV/Radio shows about the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. Found materials are here for historical archive purposes. (www.acandyrose.com - acandyrose@aol.com)

This webpage series is for historical archive and educational purposes on found materials


Evidence - Cigar Box Discussion during police interviews (Box of Monte Christo and Romeo and Juliets)

CHAIN OF EVENTS 1998

1999-02-18: "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, JonBenet and the City of Boulder"
Written by Lawrence Schiller, February 18, 1999

PMPT Page 250sb

(SNIP)

"At the Brown Palace in Denver we had a private room. Fifty people. A band called the 4-Nikators. Sit-down dinner, open bar, huge bottles of Dom Perigon, and even cigars on the tables for everyone. Patsy was striding around big as life, puffing on a cigar like she owned the place.

The MC was a guy in drag-tiara, fluffy fur around his Collar. Talked in a southern accent and did a monologue on Patsy-the Patsy Paugh Experience, from birth to the present. The family must have coached him. Lots of in-jokes and innuendo that I didn't understand. Then at midnight we were back on the bus. Patsy opened her presents on the way back. Everyone else was dropped off along the way, and Patsy and John were left alone on the bus.

That was probably the last time I saw JonBenet alive. Early that evening, before we left Patsy and John's home, both kids got on the bus to say hello to their grandparents and their aunts and uncles.

-Judith Phillips”

1998-06-23: John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Screen Capture on left is from "CBS 48 Hours Investigates - Searching for a Killer" 10/04/2002)

John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane
Present also were Bryan Morgan, PI David Williams
June 23, 24, 25, 1998 - Boulder, Colorado

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Cigars and Cigar Box)

0272
4 LOU SMIT: And I wanted to do that and
5 kind
6 of lead into various photographs, okay? I've got
7 photographs of the wine cellar. And these were
8 taken during the course of the crime scene
9 investigation. And it shows various presents in
10 the wine cellar. And I just had a couple questions
11 on that.
12 It's 263, 264, 265, 266, 267 -- I'm sorry. We'll
13 eliminate those 266, 267 and 268. we'll just
14 concentrate on the first three. And we'll just
15 show that to the camera and that will make up
16 somewhat of an image. Do you have any comments
17 about that, or does anything that looks out of
18 place? Because you're the one that knows basically
19 your house.
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,
25 But the cigar box -- I had some cigars that I kept

0273
1 in the basement because it was kind of humid. And
2 that looks like (INAUDIBLE) like they where the
3 tobacco (INAUDIBLE).
4 LOU SMIT: And you (INAUDIBLE)?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at least Monte Christo's
6 were there.
7 LOU SMIT: Can you remember if it was a full
8 box (INAUDIBLE) cigars?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: I had taken two out, so
10 it should have been reasonably full. I can't quite
11 tell. It's like it's upside down, maybe. Or dumped
12 over.
13 LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem
14 to be partially opened. Can you explain this?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.
16 LOU SMIT: So Patsy had gone there and
17 just kind looked to see what was (INAUDBILE)?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean,
19 you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box
20 was sitting on a paint can, or something like
21 that. And I believe it shouldn't have.
22 LOU SMIT: So it wasn't in the place
23 where it had been. It's not on the floor?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: And if I interpret the picture,
25 it's looks like it's kind of almost upside down on

0274
1 the floor.
2 LOU SMIT: And that's not where you remember
3 it being?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't notice any of the
5 stuff that was in the room. I was surprised I
6 didn't. all I saw was JonBenet.
7 When I put the cigar box in that room, the reason
8 that I set it down here, over here on a paint can
9 or something, and I just stuck it down there
10 because it was humid.

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Cigars and Cigar Box)

0274
11 LOU SMIT: So it was on a paint can?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was, yeah.
13 LOU SMIT: If you want to look at these,
14 just the photographs on this side.
15 MIKE KANE: How often did you smoke a cigar?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I couldn't smoke in the house.
17 And JonBenet would actually get after me if I
18 smoked or drank a beer. So the only time I would
19 smoke a cigar is if I drove to the airport or
20 something like that. So, once or twice a week,
21 maybe.
22 MIKE KANE: Those cigars I see are to be
23 Cuban, you must have gotten them out of the
24 country?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

0275
1 MIKE: Where did you get them from?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I used to go to Europe two
3 or three times a year.
4 MIKE KANE: So you sneaked them back through
5 Customs?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
7 MIKE KANE: I'm a former Fed.

(SNIP)

0289
4 LOU SMIT: I think I'm going to just
5 switch gears right now, unless you have any other
6 questions. One thing I did want to show you on
7 picture 147 here; this again is photographs of the
8 wine cellar. There's a series of them: 146, 147,
9 148 and 149. Again, photographs of the wine cellar
10 after the search warrant was obtained.
11 And I'd like to just show them to you, Mr. Ramsey,
12 and see what you observe on these photographs,
13 whether they're in place or out of place or if
14 there's anything that seems to be different? And
15 what you remember?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of the pictures,
17 this cigar box is different, certainly.
18 LOU SMIT: And what do you mean by that?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of versus the other
20 picture, it's kind of resting on its bottom here,
21 more or less. Here it's a different box.
22 LOU SMIT: So you had more than one box
23 of cigars?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that box,
25 Romeo and Juliets. I remember this. The Cubans.

0290
1 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) the same box?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember that box.
3 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's it?

1998-06-23: Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth (Screen Capture on left is from "CBS 48 Hours Investigates - Searching for a Killer" 10/04/2002)

Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth - Present also were Patrick Burke and Ellis Armistead June 23, 24, 25, 1998 - Boulder, Colorado

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth (Cigars in the basement)

0422
17 TRIP DEMUTH: Nothing out of the ordinary in
18 photo 254, 255 and 56?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TOM HANEY: 263 and 64.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Close ups of those.
22 TOM HANEY: Also appear to be.
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible).
24 TOM HANEY: Do one or both of you smoke
25 cigars?

June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth (Cigars in the basement)

0423
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No one does.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. Were they normally kept
3 there?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, he must -- I don't know.
5 TOM HANEY: Is that taboo in the house to
6 have them?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He probably put them in
8 there because it was an airtight place. It was cool.
9 I don't know what you do with cigars.
10 TOM HANEY: A humidor.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: A can.
12 TOM HANEY: Wasn't like he was hiding them
13 from you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

CHAIN OF EVENTS 1999

1999-02-01: Boulder News Forum thread,
"SECRET CIGAR BOX BROUGHT UP BY JAMESON"

spencer - 10:47am Feb 1, 1999 MST
Sin has many tools, but a lie is the handle that fits them all. (Oliver Wendell Holmes)

I think the information re the secret cigar box brought up by Jameson, and later brought up by Anderson, needs to further discussion. Due to the threadmaking crazies going on here today, the only way to possibly discuss this is to give this topic its own thread.

Wilton, thank you for answering my question re the possible contents of the cigar box. After thinking about this, though, I doubt the contents would have been JonBenet's own little trinkets. If that were the case, why would the BPD have looked for a similar box in Michigan?

Somehow, it seems this box must have contained some kind of incriminating evidence, which means they were also looking for this same type evidence in Michigan.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what could have been in the box? Did it perhaps hold materials that could be construed as relating to sexual abuse?

jameson_ - 09:55am Feb 2, 1999 MST (#17 of 54)
http://members.tripod.com/~jamesonTimeLine

The cigar box ...
Anderson is reporting what I said incorrectly.

ruthee - 11:11am Feb 2, 1999 MST (#20 of 54)
Pseudo Psychic Old Hag With No Life

There is a cigar box sitting on the paint cans in a photo of the "body room"....and Jameson, if Anderson is "Incorrect" what is correct? If there's no response, then we'll just have to go with Anderson. Not a bad idea in the first place.

wiltonjr - 03:37pm Feb 2, 1999 MST (#27 of 54)
Advice for WebbSleuths---A closed mouth gathers no feet.

Ah, Sam. You're refreshing my memory now.
Jameson told me that Fleet White went into the 'body room' after the body was found and picked up the tape that was on her mouth and handed it to an officer. She also told me that Fleet White kicked a few things around in that room in anger.

wiltonjr - 04:20pm Feb 2, 1999 MST (#29 of 54)
Advice for WebbSleuths---A closed mouth gathers no feet.

I've questioned jameson's comment about JonBenét's head being propped up ever since I first heard of that. If I understood correctly, Jameson asked another poster, if they knew so much about blah blah blah, then what was her head propped on? What I question is HOW jameson would know if her head was propped on anything when John Ramsey found the body and aside from whichever of the two left the body in that room, would be the only one to know for sure, seeing as JR moved the body???

I know that all runs together and probably won't make any sense but I'm miffed that Jameson is trying to lie about what she told me.

jameson_ - 04:52pm Feb 2, 1999 MST (#33 of 54)
http://members.tripod.com/~jamesonTimeLine

I have no knowledge of Fleet White "kicking stuff around" when he was in the basement.

I never said anything like that to Anderson.
I have no idea why he is making up stupid lies.
sigh* another wasted thread

jameson_ - 04:34pm Feb 6, 1999 MST (#69 of 72)
http://members.tripod.com/~jamesonTimeLine

Cigar box isn't a big secret - expect it to be spoken of later, maybe sooner rather than later...

CHAIN OF EVENTS 2000

2000-04-11: “JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation”
by Steve Thomas and Don Davis, April 11, 2000

ST Page 66

"Although some of the house was a frilly showplace, the alcove containing John Ramsey's study was strictly masculine. Dark walls, dark patterned drapes, furniture of heavy wood. Arched bay windows framed a classic view of the Flatiron Mountains. I sat at his big L-shaped desk, which stood solid on emerald carpet and bespoke power and control.

In here he kicked off shoes and worked in private. A model airplane rose from one corner, and a multi-button black telephone connected him with his business world. A brass-hinged cigar humidor sat near the small sculpture of a sturdy lion. A drawer was filled with family photographs.

A handwritten ledger reflected his increasing wealth over the years. Later I would find records showing that as of May 1, 1996, Ramsey had assets of $7,348,628, and a total net worth of $6,230,628. Total liabilities were an even $1,118,000, and the similarity of that figure to the ransom demand of $118,000 jumped out at me. I noted it as a possible source."

(SNIP)

ST Page 324

"Smit appeared to telegraph his questions, giving Ramsey plenty of information before asking for an answer, therefore allowing him plenty of time to consider what he was about to say. Smit even suggested that the cellar room had been recently swept and thus the Hi-Tec print was new. Yes, John Ramsey confirmed-indeed it had been recently swept.

Lou was full of unorthodox tactics, such as dropping in idle thoughts like "maybe the intruder took Patsy's bike." Patsy's bike? What did that have to do with anything? His interview, of course, was predicated on the idea that the Ramseys were innocent, and his bias was obvious.

Smit slowly leafed through notebooks filled with evidence pictures, asking Ramsey if he noticed anything different, unusual, or out of place. The common theme was that plenty of things were strange. A box of tissues did not belong there, a pillow missing here, dust and dirt disturbed elsewhere. To Ramsey it looked as though the Tupperware container in JonBenet's bedroom had something in it (the same thing Lou Smit believed). Ramsey's testimony seemed very well rehearsed. Ramsey almost seemed to know the answers before the questions were asked. A cigar box was out of place, as was his golf bag. He pointed out marks on a keyhole and noted that an Easter basket had been moved.

When Smit showed Ramsey a photo of the unidentified boot print in the cellar, Ramsey's private investigator was allowed to lean over and draw the pattern. When the detectives reviewed the videotape, Gosage threw a can of Skoal tobacco at the television screen and stormed from the room, cursing that a year's worth of work had just been handed to a prime suspect and his lawyer. Importantly, Ramsey said the "dirty"

ST Page 325

flashlight found at the scene did not belong to the family. We knew that he owned one just like it."

CHAIN OF EVENTS 2002

2002-09-17: From River's Websleuths Forum thread titled, "JonBenet cigar box rumor"

gsquared (16 posts)
17-Sep-02, 04:22 PM (CST)

"JonBenet cigar box rumor"
Do any of your ecall that old rumor about JonBenet's head being propped on a cigar box? I heard it years ago, I think from Jeff Shapiro, but I also recall that Michael Tracey told me it was false. There are two stories about it. One(recently mentioned on another forum) was that Patsy and Priscilla White smoked cigars at Patsy's 40th birthday party a few weeks prior to the murder. The story that I heard was that John smoked cigars, and JonBenet kept one of the boxes and placed little special things in it, sort of like a treasure box.

Does anyone know for sure whether this story (either version) has any merit?

ACandyRose (48 posts)
17-Sep-02, 08:56 PM (CST)

2. "RE: JonBenet cigar box rumor"
I have the original thread saved in text format from the Boulder News Forum (02-01-1999) where a poster named Wiltonjr (aka Anderson) posted that when he met yonder forum owner in July 1998 and that she told him about a cigar box that was propped under JonBenet's head. Wilton explains about on the BNF thread. On the same thread, yonder forum owner denies telling Wilton that story.

Wilton told this story again several time later on other various forums. Apparently this was when Wilton (who lived in Atlanta at the time) met with yonder forum member in that city for the first time to pick up a kitten that yonder forum owner was giving to him. During that visit, according to Wilton was also when she showed him photos from the suggested porn video that she sent to the BPD (and only God knows who else) when she was trying to get the Pugh family investigated suggesting the child in the porn was Linda's daughter and the man in the porn was Linda's husband.

I have no idea if the cigar box story is true or not. I saved the thread as it was the first I had heard the story and it peaked my interest at that time. Strange that it is resurfing again three years later. I heard a little ditty myself just today that yonder forum owner was going to surprise everybody with her vast knowledge of the Ramsey case by exposing this information.

For the record, yonder forum owner has called Wilton a liar repeatly regarding both of these stories but Wilton has remained steadfast over the years in his documenting what he was told and what he was shown.

If anybody would like to have the text version of said BNF thread, please e-mail me and I will send it to you.

Gsquared, I have your e-mail addy, I will send it to you now. Can you say YAHOO !!

ACandyRose
http://www.acandyrose.com/
acandyrose@aol.com

why_nut (161 posts)
18-Sep-02, 08:51 AM (CST)

6. "Rose" What am I missing here, be it true or untrue?"

What is missing is the concept of full rigor. Remember, when JonBenet's body was laid out on the living room floor, she was in full rigor. All of her joints, and that includes the neck, were stiff. If, in fact, her head had been propped up on a cigar box, her head would remain off the floor once the box was removed and she moved to the living room. Her head would not flop back down, not at that time. So the mere fact that her head was not seen to be out of alignment with the rest of her back means that there was no propping involved at all.

I have a small theory on this issue. In a photo taken by the Ramsey investigators shortly after the house was surrended by the BPD back to the family, the cellar room where JonBenet's body lay does show a small box, about the size of a cigar box, next to some paint cans. I suspect that, in an effort to make herself appear to be more of an insider than she was, a Certain Someone manufactured significance for the box that nobody else bothered to.

gsquared (16 posts)
18-Sep-02, 10:26 AM (CST)

9. "RE: Why-nut"
A poster on yonder forum posted today with she did tell Wilton there was a cigar box on the room but she did not tell him the contents. In today's post, she says the contents were cuban cigars. I assume those cigars were John's and he stored them in that room because it was cool and moist, a humidor of sorts. And that proves John probably went to the room with some regularity. That is probably the only significance that the box has.

gsquared (16 posts)
18-Sep-02, 10:35 AM (CST)

10. "head up?" Here is a paraphrase of said yonder post:

16. "The cigar box" In response to message #15

*Swamp mistress* told *fellow poster* there was a cigar box in the windowless room. *Mistress* did not tell *poster* it was under JonBenét's head, nor did *mistress* tell *poster* what was in it. Cuban cigars.

Yonder forum owners says that some time ago,
"someone "confessed'" on a forum and *mistress* challenged that person to tell *mistress* what was under JonBenét's head. The person couldn't answer the question. *Mistress* is adamant that she* certainly did NOT tell *poster*, or anyone else, it was the cigar box.

So, yonder forum owner says that the box was in the room and that it contained cigars. I read the post to mean that there WAS something under JonBenet's head, but it wasn't the cigar box. It seems yonder person was asking someone else to tell her what was under JonBenet's head but the other person "couldn't answer the question."

So, was there something under JonBenet's head or not, and if so, what was it? Maybe it was something relatively flat, so JonBenet's neck would not have been up in rigor mortis.

2002-12-03: National Enquirer: “Jonbenet: The Police Files”
by National Enquirer, Don Gentile and David Wright (Editors), Dec2002/Jan2003

NE Page 313

In a light moment, as John is shown pictures taken inside the Boulder home, John identifies a cigar box found in the wine cellar holding his Cuban cigars.

MIKE KANE: Those cigars I see are to be Cuban, you must have gotten them out of the country?
JR: Yeah.
MK: Where did you get them from?
JR: I used to go to Europe two or three times a year.
MK: SO you sneaked them back through customs?
JT: Yeah.
MK: I'm a former Fed.

NE Page 361

LS: . . . Okay, we are going to talk a little bit if we can about the wine cellar. Now, did you - what - how often would you go into the wine cellar, let's say before the 26th? We touched on this yesterday. . . .

JR: Well, throughout the year, hardly at all. I mean the only things that were down there that we would get at, I think we had some wine stored in there, just in boxes at one time. I don't know if there was any - I don't know if there is any left or not. But we would get a case of wine and we would put it down there. Cigars I stuck down there. Um, and of course, you know Christmas stuff out once a year, put it back. Patsy usually, I think, certainly that year did it or had it done, so I don't remember ever getting in there to get the Christmas stuff out. That's about it. We rarely went in that room.

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