June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Gloria Williams)

0476
17 MIKE KANE: What other things have
18 you done yourself to investigate this? I mean
19 outside of hiring people to do it, besides --
20 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Tried to put my
22 brain to it, just to try to figure out what
23 these clues mean, this person's life force. I
24 have given every possible -- you think back,
25 who you had a conference with, going way back,

0477
1 and I tried to give those names to our people,
2 and instructed them to share that with you. He
3 have -- I was trying to -- unfortunately I had
4 an affair 20 something years ago and I was
5 trying to figure out where this person was and I
6 looked in the phone book and I found the
7 addresses of, there are several with her name
8 and I wanted it to seem logical, she used to
9 live in the area, went to an apartment complex
10 and sat there for a while, to see if I could see
11 her come and go.
12 MIKE KANE: When was that?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know,
14 six months ago, something like that. So you
15 know, it's -- you know, when Patsy and I have
16 talked about, you know, of course we have the
17 media hounding us to talk to them all the time
18 and I think we both kind of concluded that if
19 this thing ever dies down, we are going to
20 sister it up again. We want to keep the
21 pressure on. One thing we think we can do is
22 keep the pressure on the killer.
23 LOU SMIT: Could I interject
24 you're talking about Gloria Williams?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).

0478
1 LOU SMIT: Have you ever thought,
2 you know you had claimed in that first letter
3 you sent to me or in the letter that was sent to
4 me, that she had kind of a fatal attraction type
5 personality. How did you attribute that? I
6 mean --
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, just -- we
8 hired her as a secretary in a small office, and
9 you know, I was vulnerable, but not -- not
10 crossing the line. We were at a Christmas party
11 that this office building had, she said gee, I
12 left something up in my office, do you have a
13 key? And so I went up, unlocked the door and as
14 soon as the door unlocked she turned around and
15 kissed me. And then I just kind of got sucked
16 in. But it was a, just a very strong physical
17 attraction.
18 LOU SMIT: How long did that last
19 for?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, two years,
21 maybe. It was one of the things I got into and
22 I couldn't get out. She was extremely
23 aggressive. Like you know, I tried to, you know
24 --
25 LOU SMIT: What do you mean

0479
1 aggressive?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: I wouldn't answer
3 the phone so she would call 27 times.
4 LOU SMIT: At home?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: At home. Our
6 marriage probably wasn't strong or that wouldn't
7 have happened at all, but it certainly ended it.
8 And it was probably the biggest regret I have in
9 my life, but she was a very volatile person.
10 LOU SMIT: Why do you think she
11 hasn't surfaced? I mean your name has been all
12 over the place.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. And
14 that really surprises me. I am surprised she
15 hasn't come forward and said, that son of a
16 bitch, you know, I knew him when.
17 LOU SMIT: Was it a bad breakup
18 that you had?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, and I got rid
20 of her finally. You know I just couldn't, I
21 finally got her to stop pursuing me.
22 LOU SMIT: But did she make any
23 threats?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. Not --
25 that was 20 years ago, or longer than that

0480
1 maybe.
2 LOU SMIT: And you have never
3 heard from her since?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
5 LOU SMIT: Do you know if she had
6 any children?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: She had a son, I
8 think I read his name in the note but I forget
9 it now. I think I was reading the note,
10 whatever the name was, Scott or Mark -- Mark
11 Williams, Mark Williams. It was probably 20
12 years ago, he was probably nine years old or so.

---

(SNIP)

---

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Gloria Williams)

0486
1 MIKE KANE: Just to follow up on
2 what Lou was saying about Gloria Williams. You
3 said you finally put a stop to it, or called and
4 said -- how did you do it?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was
6 actually Patsy indirectly or unknowingly helped
7 that. I met Patsy, she was one of the first
8 persons I met that I really cared about, and
9 wanted to -- I always kind of thought she was
10 kind of a gift from my mother to help me get my
11 life straightened out, who had died ten years
12 before.
13 But Patsy and I were down, we were
14 downstairs in the apartment, she was staying
15 cooking hamburgers, and I went upstairs to get
16 some more wine, and when I got up there, this
17 Gloria had called and said she was coming over
18 and I didn't want it to mess up my -- what was
19 just starting to be a relationship with Patsy.
20 And so I left the apartment, I just left. I
21 didn't want her to find me anywhere.
22 And she came over and was
23 apparently knocking on my door and Patsy by this
24 time was thinking, where in the world did I go?
25 She said she came upstairs, she tells the story

0487
1 later she came upstairs with these two wine
2 glasses and here is this woman standing and
3 knocking on my door and she said well, where is
4 he? And this Gloria says he is in with her.
5 Patsy said her, her who? She said Patsy. Oh,
6 well, I was just bringing these wine glasses
7 back.
8 She was smooth as a cucumber, and
9 later that evening, I came back, kind of told
10 her what had happened, I said I had this
11 girlfriend that was crazy and I just didn't want
12 it to -- and so I said I was going to stay
13 there that night and sleep on the couch, because
14 I didn't want to be in my apartment and we were
15 just talking and knock, knock, knock on the
16 door, and -- actually I think I was going to
17 leave. There was a knock on the door, and I was
18 literally behind the door, Patsy opened the
19 door, it's Gloria, and she said I was waiting
20 for John, I want to come in, use your phone and
21 Patsy, "oh, our phone is out of order, we just
22 moved in."
23 And here I was standing behind the
24 door, I was -- then she just was -- and from
25 that moment -- first of all, from that moment

0488
1 on, Gloria left me alone and I also realized how
2 much, what a significant person Patsy was.
3 Because here she was a 23-year-old, just
4 standing there. So that was kind of the
5 breaking point.
6 LOU SMIT: Have you been able to
7 locate her at all?
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know,
9 but I am very surprised that she hasn't
10 surfaced.
11 LOU SMIT: That is kind of an
12 unusual thing.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

---

(SNIP)

---

0693
19 MIKE KANE: All right. Are there
20 any big secrets you kept from Patsy?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. Not that I
22 can think of.
23 MIKE KANE: Do you think there was
24 any big secrets she ever kept from you?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No. I doubt

0694
1 that very much.
2 MIKE KANE: Why? Why is that?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you live with
4 somebody for 18 years, it's pretty hard to keep
5 secrets for one thing, I guess. I don't know
6 what a big secret is but --
7 MIKE KANE: How did you keep the
8 Gloria Williams secret from Cindy?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that was
10 ultimately not possible, obviously.
11 MIKE KANE: But I think you said
12 two years?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We were
14 divorced after two years, I think. But I think
15 that affair probably went on for eight months or
16 a year maybe. Before it exploded.
17 MIKE KANE: Before she found out
18 about it?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 MIKE KANE: But you were able to
21 maintain it for that period of time?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).